See this blog post I just wrote, that you’re reading right now? This blog article is proof of the existence of God.
| Before you read/watch/listen to “If You Can Read This I Can Prove God Exists,” read THIS first. (700 words – 2 minutes) – then come back and continue reading. Thanks. |
Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I’m not asking you to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey, but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all time.
So how is this message proof of the existence of God?
This web page you’re reading contains letters, words and sentences. It contains a message that means something. As long as you can read English, you can understand what I’m saying.
You can do all kinds of things with this message. You can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who’s in the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you can post it on some other website.
Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it, the information remains the same. My email contains a message. It contains information in the form of language. The message is independent of the medium it is sent in.
Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper).
Messages are not energy even though they can be carried by energy (like the sound of my voice.)
Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a unique kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and copied in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same.
Messages can be in English, French or Chinese. Or Morse Code. Or mating calls of birds. Or the Internet. Or radio or television. Or computer programs or architect blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete plan for you.
OK, so what does this have to do with God?
It’s very simple. Messages, languages, and coded information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and intent.
Whether I use the simplest possible explanation, such as the one I’m giving you here, or if we analyze language with advanced mathematics and engineering communication theory, we can say this with total confidence:
“Messages, languages and coded information never, ever come from anything else besides a mind. No one has ever produced a single example of a message that did not come from a mind.”
Nature can create fascinating patterns – snowflakes, sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites. Tornadoes and turbulence and cloud formations.
But non-living things cannot create language. They *cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they cannot talk. And they cannot create information.
It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose accidentally from the “primordial soup,” the early ocean which produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells.
But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to answer the question, ‘Where did the information come from?’
DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a “pattern.” Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals are arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way that English and Chinese and HTML are languages.
DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise instructions and systems that check for errors and correct them. It is formally and scientifically a code. All codes we know the origin of are designed.
To the person who says that life arose naturally, you need only ask: “Where did the information come from? Show me just ONE example of a language that didn’t come from a mind.”
As simple as this question is, I’ve personally presented it in public presentations and Internet discussion forums for more than four years. I’ve addressed more than 100,000 people, including hostile, skeptical audiences who insist that life arose without the assistance of God.
But to a person, none of them have ever been able to explain where the information came from. This riddle is “So simple any child can understand; so complex, no atheist can solve.”
You can hear or read my full presentation on this topic at
http://evo2.org/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
Watch it on video:
http://evo2.org/perry-speaks/perryspeaks.html
Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone can agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere, too!
Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.
Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read, every packet of information that zings across the Internet, is proof of the existence of God. Because information and language always originate in a mind.
In the beginning were words and language.
In the Beginning was Information.
When we consider the mystery of life – where it came from and how this miracle is possible – do we not at the same time ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?
Respectfully Submitted,
Perry Marshall
Full Presentation and Technical Details (please review before posting questions or debates on the blog, almost every question and objection is addressed by these articles):
–“If you can read this, I can prove God exists” – listen to
my full presentation or read the Executive Summary here:
http://evo2.org/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
–“OK, so then who made God?” and other questions about information and origins:
–Why DNA is formally and scientifically a code, and things like sunlight and starlight are not (Please read this before you attempt to debate this on the blog!!!):
http://evo2.org/blog/information-theory-made-simple and http://evo2.org/faq/#code
-The Atheist’s Riddle: Members of Infidels, the world’s largest atheist discussion board attempt to solve it
(for over 4 years now!), without success:
Where Did Life And The Genetic Code Come From? Can The Answer Build Superior AI? The #1 Mystery In Science Now Has A $10 Million Prize. Learn More About It, Here – https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0
I’m an atheist by default of the definition, However I do believe in the Resurrection of the Spirit, life-after-death, and God the “Father” an Astronaut King. He didn’t create the Infinite Universe but has the keys to life everlasting, and thru His Beloved Son Jesus Christ we can share the eternal with him. Sure we can pander the non-believer sciences, DNA, and Neuron Physics might soon find the money to invent some technology to capture ghosts for examination. Or we can just wait and pray that the coming Armageddon Prophesies will show their long awaited form. The 2nd Coming of Israel marks the last generation before Christ returns, and in the middle of the return of Israel and Gods return is the few years of Armageddon mass death. I personally believe the first of the Armageddon mass deaths will come in October and give Obama a 3rd term. “The Beast will be Given Another 42 Months to Rule” or almost a 3rd.
There are many issues in believing in God as not the creator of the universe. It’s in the Bible “The Secret Knowledge of the Most High” and Jesus taught an example of that when he addressed the Pharisees on Divorce “The people had hardened their hearts for divorce under Moses and so God allowed it” I say to you men have hardened their hearts for creationism much longer than divorce. God the Father only allows us to call him the creator of all because he is like of mind on divorce.
Riddle of the what was it’s name -Phoenix? Here’s a new one for you “I have sinned all the sins of the world by my hands and in my heart, yet I have never sinned, I am white as snow and pure of heart, without any sin.”Who am I?
God created the heavens and the Earth!…https://zlj13051967.wordpress.com/2016/06/11/god-created-the-heavens-and-the-earth/
Here it is, another person who says “if you don’t know how something works, then god exist”. we just don’t know everithing (stop believing that we do!), and that’s all what we can say
The way he framed his argument, yeah, it seems like he’s saying the fact we don’t know is PROOF that God exists. But if you actually read it, he does point out that God is only one possible explanation. The title and intro are just misleading.
Just realized I forgot to close my italics in that last reply. And there’s no editing here. Welp.
Anyway, I still think this should have been titled something like, “If you can read this sentence, I can draw a tenuous comparison to something that shows the likelihood that a godlike being existed at some point.” Or, “If you can read this and you agree that speech and computer code work the same, I can prove a god exists.” Much less dishonest.
Correction: I was confusing this post with his FAQ about it. The FAQ treats the argument with more sound logic.
Sorry, I was doubly confused. What I was thinking of was in this comment on this article—not in the article itself, nor in the FAQ.
Which is to say… yes, you’re right, this argument is fallacious and deceptive, even if you accept the premises.
True comment we can argue both sides whether God’s exists or not.
I know my opinion.
But it is true science fails to accept it does not have all the answers.
If It were true that science has all the answers we would all be living forever in perfect harmony.(that is of course that all men desire this)
Man’s ultimate quest is to live forever but he may deny this, as time goes by we decide (or not) well I have done all I can let me seek God there nothing else I can achieve in this lifetime.
So man still seeks ultimately life.
Some accept we die and that’s the end of it all so enjoy life while we have it.
Some choose God ultimately chooses to live.
Yes you can call it fake but would you are you ashamed or scared or simply refuse to believe because it may involve giving up things we like. Which of course in someone else’s mind is harmful. I mean who likes to be told what to do.
Most of us lucky ones knows our parents knows best. But as we get older we choose our own path.
We already know what is right and wrong it is in us (the free will to do good or evil)
The point is Yahweh (our living God ) does not force you to acknowledge him he let’s you decide.
King Cyrus and King Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged this two powerful men that made Cesar look like a small superpower. God uses who he pleases to prove his existence be it a good person or bad. The disciples ?some were another example of this.
Man ultimately wants to live on in a world he dreams of so what can we do to achieve this ?
Remember this God’s glory is so great we would die in an instant of seeing him. How long can you look at the Sun without going blind ? How long can you bare the pain of a burning candle on finger tip ?
How long can you hold your breath under water ?
Some mistake him for mother Nature the words seek and you shall find is so true but how much of us acknowledge the truth when we find it. Especially if it cannot be proven the how could it possibly be true. Does that make it false ?
When science can not find and answer does that makes something random false or chaotic ?
How many times do we as humans want to stamp our authority or doe something out of the norm of be spontaneous to show we we different or to prove a point.
How many times do we say the establishment sees us as just a number yet we spend most of our lives working for who and to what avail.
The establishment can not promise the gift of eternal life
Peace and Love and Blessings to those who seek it
GGF
It seems like your argument is focused more on proving that life was designed rather than on who the designer is. Even if it was agreed upon that there must be an intelligent designer, you provide no more evidence to believe that God did it than a unicorn did. Your preconceived notions of God and the bible is the only reason you believe God did it.
So u know how there’s different species of snakes how did they become to be did they come from eachother or did God make all different types of species in one time it just feels like these theory’s have hurt my faith and I want to fall towards God but this stuff pulls me away. And I’m just 13 so this kills me.
Is there any way you can get your hands on my book “Evolution 2.0”? https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-2-0-Breaking-Deadlock-Between/dp/1940363802?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc
If you read the articles on this site I think it will resolve your problems.
Also I recommend that you watch
http://evo2.org/homeschool-engineered-evolution-creation-and-intelligent-design/
I’m no scientist, hell I’m not even that bright, My simple question to you is this. In regard to your assertions that there is in fact a “god” simply because there is a language to be found in DNA, I ask you this; If code present proves design, does it in fact prove there is a god?.
It seems a compelling argument in favor of “creation”, but in no way does it prove the existence of God, as any religion views him to be. Proof of creation, does not prove or disprove this theory of a god. You have successfully proven that there is a code to be found in DNA hooray for you. What you haven’t done is prove existence in a God, You’ve not traced this language to it’s origin, you’ve not deciphered this code in any significant way.
Proof that a thing has been created (even should that thing be mankind) is not proof of it’s creator, it’s proof of creation. The verdict is still out on who or what may have been responsible for our creation.
See this June 1 comment where he backpedaled to acknowledge other possibilities. Yes, he attempted to prove that biology was designed. No, he did not attempt to prove the identity of that designer.
What if creator = creation?
That would be a bootstrap paradox.
Providing an example of a language that didn’t come from a mind doesn’t prove another mind made it. It proves that either there is a mind that made it or that the assumption that all languages needs to come from a mind is wrong. You want an example of a language that didn’t come from a mind. DNA. Or rather than a 4 letter system that can create living people how about the three item system, protons, neutrons and electrons that comprise all matter and thus the DNA itself. And those the. Are compromised of specific sets of subatomic particles, like tiny words. So there are lots of examples really. And even if there weren’t any it doesn’t default to proving what you want.
“You want an example of a language that didn’t come from a mind. DNA.”
Prove it.
Prove a negative? Great logic there.
Sam, this is not “proving a negative” in the sense of proving there are no pink elephants.
This is proving that there is ANY example anywhere of a code which empirically was not designed.
If the naturalistic worldview is correct, this will be possible. Maybe even easy. I have a $3 million prize for anyone who can solve it. http://www.naturalcode.org.
He said that X was not Y (that DNA was not “a language that came from a mind”). Your only response was to demand proof of that negative.
And if he has an experiment that shows how you get a code without designing one (chemicals to code by any demonstrable process) then he will have the proof that I asked for. Produce the experiment, get the check.
That’s… not how logic works. You don’t make an assumption and wait for it to be proven false. DNA was the product of a mind? Things that resemble codes can only come from a mind? Okay, prove it. Your game prize is about as meaningful as James Randi’s.
Every other communication system that matches Shannon’s model is designed. The natural inference is that DNA too is designed. One counter example will overturn my syllogism. And I welcome anyone who can do it. That will be scientific progress.
Sir, that is exactly how logic works. ALL science is based on making an assumption (based on consistent observations) and waiting for it to be proven false. The law of gravity for example.
What is your level of formal science education, Sam?
That’s contingent on the assumption that DNA is a communication system. But all you’ve really proven to that end is it can sort of be viewed as one if you squint hard enough. It’s natural for our minds to look for patterns and similarities through broad interpretations. That’s how a bean ended up with the name “peanut.” But I’m not convinced your genetic bean is a nut. So: prove it.
Look up the history of the genetic code and find out for yourself why it’s called the genetic code. Read Gamow, Crick, Watson etc – lots of books about that. Read Hubert Yockey’s book “Information theory, evolution and the origin of life” from which I took the illustration at http://www.naturalcode.org. Or go to scholar.google.com and search for combinations of keywords:
shannon
information entropy
information theory
etc.
with
genetics
dna
genome
etc.
The entire field of bioinformatics is built on the fact that DNA is a communication system. A bit of research on your part will easily confirm this fact. Also see http://evo2.org/dna-atheists/dna-code/. Or read any modern biology or genetics book.
All of which proves that there are parallels between genetics and information theory. I don’t deny that. But you let the simplified similarities fool you into thinking they’re the same, and built your whole case around that. There are also those who believe that DNA is a unique system not directly comparable to any other, and that “information” or “communication” can only exist when there is an intelligence to interpret it (and cells are not intelligent).
For the record, I believe in God. I also believe that you’re fundamentally wrong. Not that you’re necessarily wrong that a supernatural intelligence created DNA, but that the foundations of your argument are wrong. Just like you’re wrong about bioinformatics, where you might as well be saying geology is built on the fact that the earth’s strata are a communication system.
Sam,
It’s not squinting and seeing some vague similarity. It’s isomorphic. Look up “isomorphic” and then read Yockey to understand why.
Add to that the fact that it has error correction (312), checksums (316), linguistic structure (403, 520), and codes layered inside of codes [refs are from Evolution 2.0] the objection that it’s not really a code is vacuous.
You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe – but you are in disagreement with 60 years of standard biology.
I’m a communications engineer and I know a communication system when I see one. I also know when something is NOT a communication system – like earth’s strata in geology.
I’ve discussed with many many people whether the information is ontologically real, ie. is it “Really” a code or does it just “look like” a code? It’s a philosophical question.
Frankly I don’t care. And in some sense it doesn’t matter because I’ve framed it as an engineering problem. If someone can generate a naturally occurring system that looks enough like a code to make an encoding decoding table, as we see with the genetic code itself, they get the money.
Interesting article. Believe it or not the argument you make is the exact one I came up with around 2010 in an ethics class of my last year of high school. Nobody was patient enough to listen to me and I had trouble putting the thought into words, so thank you for doing so. For the fun and curiosity of it I’m going to critique your argument and push you for further explanation.
Question: How would you address the point that as science learns more about DNA and we find the genes to eye colour, we begin to clone etc. that perhaps one day humans will be able to create DNA? Would humans then become a G-d as you describe it, creating the information? And if your response shall be that we are using the code but the information existed, well what if us as humans were created by an alien human that played with their own DNA but just put us on a different planet to live?
Can you take the argument a step further and say that to even interact with information (intangible and non-physical) that there must be either a higher power or a “sixth sense” or some other force that permitted us to interact with thoughts/information, which are outside of our physical world and untestable?
You should read The Abolition of Man by CS Lewis.
To create information requires consciousness, as best I can tell. The consciousness question is a complete mystery to materialists.
We have so much not proven, Is the Infinite Universe the one and only infinite universe? I’ve taken to calling it the “Primary” or Fundamental Infinite Universe just to placate those who suggest “Alternate” universes and others that suggest “There is an Infinite Universe inside your mind, if only you can conceive it.” Time travel? going back in time to change the time and space continuem? “Back to the Future” and other science fiction make light of the subject, but if you believe in life after death,the resurrection of the spirit of pure living energy and a God-Father then you view time travel from that perspective. Sending electrons of photonic proportions may be easier than sending the human body. And if the technology existed one could perhaps create a link between one time frame to the next. Sending Quantum consciousness of your own soul to your own body and mind that existed 20 years ago could be a possible scenario. Perhaps these Astronaut Gods that keep themselves hidden from most of us are doing these kind of experiments using Earth humans. Perhaps Autism which is seen coupled with very scientific minds is a byproduct of sending consciousness back in time. The force of energy causes their minds to blow a fuse and they haven’t found a fix for it. Is some humans carrying an electromagnetic string attached to every day and minute of their lives? And attached by alien gods who are using us for time travel experiments?
This argument is nonsense. You know ants and bees communicate too? Do they have a mind? If not, the mind isn’t required. So, that’s one assumption wrong. Two, languages are entirely human made. See Esperanto for one obvious example. You don’t need extraneous beings for them. Thee, even if language did ‘come from mind’ you make typical absurd leap of religious person it somehow proves existence of supernatural. Mind coul have evolved on its own, look at apes, dolphins, dogs, elephants, perfect examples of less complex “minds”. No, this argument doesn’t hold any water.
And you’re completely wrong about language not coming from rocks, either, computers give messages to humans all the time and they are just fancily arranged rocks.
Use your real name and I’ll be happy to respond.
Computers only give messages to humans because of the intervention of humans. That’s the point. If you accept the premise that DNA carries information in the same sense of the word, then DNA works just like the human-arranged rocks of computers. And if computers deliver information because humans created them, that means DNA delivers information because God created it.
This is all assuming that we agree on what “information” means, and that we’re not conflating homonyms.
Okay first of all I’m a Muslim and if you ask why it because Islam actually answer all these itchy questions and believe it or not these answers make good sense to me regarding my very little knowledge. And Perry’s article actually came along in agreement with what Islam say-what God say- and I suggest to read about the Islamic scientific explanations. Secondly it’s important to accept that the human mind is limited somehow it can’t comprehend everything especially when it’s beyond our limited understanding of logic, however the truth is not everyone will obey God every single one knows God is undeniable but some people just want to disobey. And no one can force someone to believe.
This is true each human being has free will to choose their life and religion. God will one day reveal the truth to all. I don’t believe there is one religion a person must choose. The story of the tower of Babel is an example of this.
One religion will give one leader too much power. One slip up (corruption) as we are all just men and vulnerable. We see this time and time again even within the same religion be it Islam , Christianity etc.
Let each man seek the truth and the truth will be revealed if his heart is willing.
You have two MAJOR logical flaws in your presentation. First, you say, “All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving while I show you my proof.” This both a special knowledge claim (as you don’t know what I do or don’t believe) and also a strawman – in that, most atheists / skeptics / freethinkers do NOT “not believe” in a god or gods; rather, they LACK a belief in a god or gods (hence, a- theism, or without god(s)). Your other basic problem, at the beginning of this article, comes from the equivocation of the word “information.” A computer programmer, clearly created by a designer, contains information, which tells the computer what to do. I can create a program that tells the computer how to write its own programs — but then IT becomes the creator; yet, ultimately, I created IT. However, DNA does NOT contain “information” in the same regard as a computer program; this is where the equivocation comes in. Yes, DNA contains detailed instructions for how to build cells, chemicals, and so on… but DNA didn’t exist in the so-called “primordial soup.” The building blocks of DNA, however, may have – science hasn’t definitively defined all the parameters of abiogenesis (the technical name for the rise of life on Earth). At any rate, DNA has evolved over the 4.5 billion years the Earth has existed. The elements that make up cytosine, guanine, adenine, and thymine existed or began to exist, and at some point, formed up to make the first rudimentary DNA particle, and evolution acted.
To say that “If you can read this sentence, I can prove God exists” is absurd.
If I cannot read the sentence (i.e., I never learned to read, I don’t own a computer, I don’t speak English, I am learning impaired, etc., etc.) you can’t prove God exists? This reducto ad absurdum proves that you’ve either never studied informal logic or else failed to apply it here.
Your argument fails.
The inverse (“If I can’t read the sentence…”) doesn’t have much to do with the original claim. But let’s look at the contrapositive:
If he can’t prove God exists, then we can’t read that sentence.
Reductio ad absurdum indeed. That nitpick aside, you’re absolutely right about the logic of this argument.
After the Evolution vs Creation Debate we should all have the God After Evolution Debate. An Astronaut God/King that is thousands, millions or billions of years more evolved, and has conquered space travel and life as pure energy. The prefect explanation of all religions, alien gods that are not-so-perfect, but has something to offer us. It’s quite a growing movement, groups like the Raelians are accepting Jesus that way.
In fact Jesus spoke of the SECRET KNOWLEDGE OF THE MOST HIGH when he addressed the Pharisees in the Book of Mathew on Divorce. “The people had hardened their hearts for divorce” So Moses allowed divorce only because the people were not going to accept Gods Word on the subject. AND I SAY TO YOU- Man has hardened their hearts much longer for Creationism.
And “Creation of the Infinite Universe” itself is tainted by the concept that there are “Alternate and Subsequent Infinite Universes” And then there are those that believe there is an infinite universe inside each and every human mind that is wiling to believe it. So one must always suggest Creation of the Primary or First Infinite Universe to address those that conceive these other universes. So this debate is flawed by not defining the primary. I for one will never believe the primary infinite universe was created. Can a subsequent universe consume or absorb the primary universe? Perhaps that is what the Astronaut God/King is out to do. I have no idea what degree of science “They” have achieved. Maybe even time travel- not the “Back to the Future” comedy but sending ones Quantum Consciousness back via some Electromagnetic link that was attached by the alien gods to some of us as part of some science experiment. It would explain why they don’t interact very much with us, because they are using Earth humans for various science experiments. Might explain why some Autistic children have such powerful minds- they were sent back to their own childhood and the millions of mph above the speed of light caused the two Quantum Minds to collide and short circuit. Leaving the subjects without any memory of the former life.
Well anyway the Astronaut God/King should be coming back soon. If he left and went back to his home planet after Jesus then he was gone at least 1,000 years and that means it may have taken him close to 1,000 years to get back. Kinda gives us an idea of where his planet could be, that is if they are traveling the speed of light, but maybe they are even going twice that speed?
The contention that DNA must have been created by a mind seems only to hold water if the language of DNA doesn’t develop without one… yet it does. We have visible evidence that DNA changes all the time. New characteristics that never existed before are “written” into the DNA language all the time. Not just characteristics, but new species are created and we observe this constantly within spans shorter than our lifetime (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/evolution-watching-speciation-occur-observations/). Adaptations/improvements to the language are occurring without any evidence God is rewriting the code …rather we see simple enviromental factors in a very straightforward way writing and rewriting the code, even removing sections of code. To be a more convincing proof of an existential creator of the language of DNA, there would be no evidence that it develops without God’s involvement. Note: I don’t by these statements deny the existence of God, I instead don’t consider this idea of language needing a mind to create it being a compelling proof.
Another thought… If somehow the contention that a mind was required to explain the DNA we see was valid, on what basis do we need to accept that the mind was God’s? We’re it a space alien that invented our DNA and deposited it on our planet and then scoot off to parts unknown (perhaps taking a wrong turn at Deneb and colliding with a black hole, never to be seen again). Surely such an alien would not constitute God. That such alternatives exist and are not readily disproven, it leaves the proof of God as demonstrated by our DNA questionable.
My apologies if you have addressed this elsewhere. This set of responses to your post is very long and I admit to being too lazy to read them all (and would not blame you if in like manner you were uninclined to respond to yet another.) —Best regards!
The amazing fact that cells edit and re-arrange their own DNA does not explain where the code came from itself.
I could ask you where the first cell came from. That’s frankly a much more difficult question.
Five options, all of which are logical inferences from what we know:
1. humans designed dna
2. aliens designed dna
3. God designed dna
4. dna code occurred randomly and spontaneously
5. information comes from an unknown law of physics.
1 requires time travel. 2 only pushes the question back further. 4 is anti-scientific, it’s an non-explanation. 5 is a perfectly valid line of inquiry and I offer a $3 million prize for the answer. http://www.naturalcode.org.
Sure is alot of different opinions here. But even evolution is theory. I posted once before on Alternate, subsequent infinite universe’s and the idea that there is an infinite universe in each persons mind. I believe I also posted that the debate “Evolution vs Creation” should/must be followed or accompanied with a debate on “God after Evolution” or an Astronaut God who didn’t create the Primary Infinite Universe. A human god that is billions years ahead of us and has conquered space travel with nuclear craft, and has found life everlasting as pure conscious energy.
The Theory of him finding perfection and life everlasting again is a debatable subject. I must stress we have limited knowledge and limited ways of finding answers even with technology we have today. For example we all know what telepathy is but do we have and do not know how to use it. Some Christian claim to be able to tap in this phenomenon and so do mediums although I am skeptical about both but but for sure I believe certain individuals are very capable of this.
Could you imagine if you could read any persons mind at any given time, or as I said previously if we were able to time travel out outside of the human body. Man will continue to discover develop and accidentally stumble on discoveries whether it be medical, physically , spiritual etc. Either way we only have some attributes gifted to us. Just look at what various insects are capable of, could you imagine if they were our size or larger today. This is just touching the surface when I talk about what God (or in scientific terms) another being could be capable of. Most of us have seen superhero films of some sort as we as witchcraft based films. We can not fully prove God created the earth or fully prove he exists. We can choose to keep his word as it is written they shall never fade away. If it were possible most of us would like to trace our family tree right back to the beginning. The things can we accept we are all one family? What do most people want for their family? Peace , love , unity, wealth, health. Should we not be all fighting for that while we are here. If we look back in history jealousy and greed breaking the instruction of law ruin us. Not man made law but a law to protect us from our own destruction.
Gilbert Lay: You misunderstand the term “theory.” A scientific theory contains all the observed facts regarding that subject. So: there is a theory of gravity, nuclear theory, particle theory … and evolutionary theory. If it were “only a theory,” as people are phrasing it, we wouldn’t have to worry about nuclear war or nuclear power plant meltdowns, because they couldn’t happen. After all, nuclear theory is only a theory … you can’t REALLY build nuclear weapons…
There IS (or should be) no “debate” on Evolution vs. Creation, as if it’s GOT to be one OR the other. Why not God created the universe, and then let evolution take its course? This fits both the Bible AND science, without destroying either, and without people sticking their collective heads in the sand.
According to the Biblical account of Genesis, God did not create either plants or animals. He commanded the EARTH to produce plants and animals (presumably via the process of evolution). Consider this:
Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:11
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:24
Not, “let there be plants,” or “let there be animals” – acts of direct creation – but let the EARTH bring forth. Yes, God created these things – but INDIRECTLY, rather than directly.
David, your point about “let the land produce… plants / animals” is of major importance. YES God created these things indirectly not directly, it’s right there in the good book.
David I agree Theory and Facts Principal and Science are related to God we can not look at Evolution and Creatism as two separate entities as God created and in doing some things mostly living things are able to recreate. The is part able to sustain and repair up to a point as are we up to a point.
I can only but agree, once you leave out the scriptures non of the differing theories can be compiled to make any sense of where we started and where we will go. No man can come up with the answers and never will. The closest man has got to explaining are the ones who have written these biblical texts of whom were guided and inspired by God. They openly admit it. Even skeptics and non believers of that day were converted of those days. (Admittedly there have been words added and taken away as well as translation errors which we know about) but we know where the mistakes are but what about the other 75% or more which is true? Why must God continue use others to prove his existence. He has said wait for Jesus to return and that is final. He does not Lie.
Why would he need to he is the most high and mighty he cannot be destroyed and never will be.
Everything in this world is conveying a message. Every moving thing is telling you F=MA, are all moving things intelligent? No. Every star and cosmic entity is telling you F = G*(m1xm2/R ), is every star and cosmic entity and intelligent being? No. You see, the message not only relies on the entity which created it, but also on the receiver. It is the human context that decides what is and is not information. If Chuthulu from H.P. Lovecrafts mythos would read the DNA string, it would not be considered information to him, because it would represent no meaning. Chuthulu would not be able to tell the difference between a human and a rock, because they are both insignificant to him. Blatantly saying, it is because we are human that we consider a difference between what has a mind, and what is mind-less; a difference between what is alive, and what is dead. The truth is, the universe is truly indifferent to the human condition. Human’s and rocks are both made of the same material, atoms and molecules that trace back to the beginning of time. Having a different composition of the same elements, letting us walk and talk and think, does not make us special; it only let’s us think so. To elaborate even further, we are already dead. We are fated to decompose into the atoms that molecules that comprise the earth and the universe, and the earth and universe is fated to become the atoms and molecules that form into life. So everything that is dead, is alive; and everything that is alive, is already dead. So whether it is an intelligent being sending a message or not, makes no big difference.
Tell that to a recent widow.
A terse appeal to emotion rather than a logical response to any of the points made? Okay, I give up. You just don’t know how argumentative logic works. Or maybe you know but don’t care. Either way.
Taking the same tack: You want to argue there is a God? Tell that to a nonbeliever’s widow, when it means her dear departed is eternally in Hell.
See the problem with that line of argument? Doesn’t matter; you’ve got a mess of flaws throughout.
His logic is “dead things are made of matter. Live things are made of matter. Therefore dead things and live things are the same.”
It’s not even worth responding to.
I’ll give it a proper response if he will use his full first and last name.
There is a God is not equivalent to “unbelievers burn eternally in hell” – which is a belief I do not subscribe to. I don’t think the Bible actually teaches it. But that’s a whole ‘nother conversation.
Let’s just say your wrong for one minute.
What would you yourself say to God if you met him after death and he says to you why did you deny my existence.
Would you just say there was no proof ? Also would you ask him to forgive you for doubting him ?
Aside from all the the other questions you would have in-store.
I would just to hear your view and others please
Many thanks
Me, I would ask Him why there are so many conflicting religions worshipping different gods, and even many conflicting religions centered around the one God. It’s not a simple question of believing or not believing; it’s a gamble that you’re believing in the “right” god the “right” way. I have no doubt that many of the Latin Church members involved in the Crusades were absolutely certain that they were doing God’s will, for instance.
I agree with what you say Sam and it is a valid question.
But if there was one religion we would follow one leader which could potentially be catastrophic ( as history has shown this) if he or she decided to go against God’s wishes.
For example I mentioned greed previously as one example of this.
There was a split in Islam after the the prophet Mohammed died (pbuh) The initial reason was because they argued over who would succeed the prophet.
It is man that causes confusion whether his influences are of this world or not.
History shows many examples of this and most of the time it is about Power shifts , Greed, Jealousy.
Today still holds true but involves less and less of whatever religion some of us represent.
Gandi, Jesus,Martin Luther King, John F Kennedy all existed we can not deny it but they all died for peace and the good of man. If these people were all alive today do you think they would be arguing who is to represent God or which God?
I can not answer the question if there are any other Gods.. But the scriptures say do not worship any other Gods but me, the one living God who gave you life. Now again we can choose to believe it or not but like I said previously there. is that 1% called faith which tips the scale either way in terms of belief. We struggle to wonder whether God talks to us or maybe we do hear in things but again neither is right or wrong they are both true.
Why would people face persecution and death in the name of God they can’t all be mad people or liars.
People day it’s the Bible is the biggest deception written and made by man. Now I am a man with my own mind as you Sam who refuse to be brain washed by man but someone in search of the truth.
Once we begin to dismiss myths without searching we dismiss ourselves.
My neighbour who is a Pastor dismissed the Greek Gods as a myth where as I looked into it.
There are many scientists and philosophers that start out as religious and some as atheists. Some stayed as they were and others changed and grasped a belief and visa versa.
No matter what level you are academically the choice will still remain yours ? So if you ever do meet God if there is the one living God you will be asked why did you deny me.
What is the point in man pressing you down while he takes all cream only to die and leave it to someone else ? What is the point of accumulating more than we can use for self gain. Is it not better to share with man than to take unlawfully what belongs to him ? Why would a God or man teach us this if he wanted to control us.
We all have free will and self control how we use it in this life will depend on what happens in the next.
Heaven and Earth shall pass away but my words shall never ? (I will let you the rest of that sentence)
Peace Love and Blessings to those who seek it
If God is an Astronaut that of course didn’t create the infinite universe, then it’s possible that all religions were invented by alien beings. Ghosts, Holy Spirit, Angels and even Demons may only be sophisticated computer programs that create the illusions they do on a few people in order to perpetuate the myth of life after death. Perhaps the aliens created religions to experiment on us and see if we would be more civilized.
If there is no god (or possibly even if there is), we invented all the religions.
Rocks don’t grow
But I ask if there was no difference between something living or not and it is just a case of matter then why not end your life ? Why Live as it is just a matter of choice . Can a rock feel pain or a plant which lives ?
For me, the problem is not whether big bang happened or where did everything comes from. It’s a lot simpler.
Can you communicate with God?
Can you prove that you actually communicate with Him, and not just talking to your own mind?
What if I ask other people who have different religious beliefs and thus ‘different God’, and those people say the same thing as you? so everyone is correct?
Because I tried talking to God but He didn’t answer, the most logical thing to conclude is that He does not exist.
There may be ‘theories’ about the origins of life, that it’s impossible for everything to come naturally without design yadda yadda etc, but for me that doesn’t really prove God. What can convince me is if you can show me how someone can actually communicate with God, either directly or indirectly, and when there are people who believe in different Gods is in one room, only one is able to prove it.
Because in the end it’s what matters.
Because I tried talking to God but He didn’t answer, the most logical thing to conclude is that He does not exist ‘or simply doesn’t care when people desperately looking for Him’.
Many people have had that experience. Doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. It may mean God didn’t answer you. Or that He did and you were not in a place to be able to hear. If you would like help in this matter just say so and we’ll be in touch.
There is a saying the teacher is silent when the student is being tested.
We are all tested for patience and it is common that when we reach a point where we can not go on, that is the time to pray for the second time for help or we can say God did not help me. That 1% faith again is the test. If you are going to work for the most powerful person who also happens to be compassionate not ruthless, then you will be tested to the utmost limit. The difference is if you fall flat on your face, rather than being sacked you will be given a helping hand to rise again and become stronger, wiser, faster, more controlled and more efficient. How many bosses do you know that work this way. God also uses other people to give you messages sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. Once we overcome the fear of loss and failure we can focus (become less worried and confused) about what is important as well as what we want to better our lives. Helping others less fortunate than us aids us in realising where we are in life it also shows us how to be content and restrain ourselves in pursuit of what we don’t actually need.
A good balance in life is good.
Every single Christian believer hears God’s voice – but most aren’t geared to recognize the voice. To learn more, read “Hearing The Voice Of The Lord,” by Pastor Cedon Saintil, Jr. It’s a great read.
https://www.amazon.com/Hearing-Voice-Lord-Cedon-Saintil/dp/1499517955
David with all due respect not all individuals Christians have heard God’s voice. No man can claim this. Also the link you posted leads to a 20 dollar book . Receiving God’s word should cost nothing but in this day and age publishers and printers Author etc need to get paid. I have not read the book but one thing that concerns me are people and individuals who seem to think it is OK to make excessive amounts on books and images (crosses ornaments etc) how much of this money goes back into helping the needy and homeless rather than building a new extravagant convention centre etc for to so called already saved Christians .
There are still many non believers on this site but look close at Jesus as example he did not promote himself but his Father. He ask no one to praise him but his Father. He never spoke of making money but giving. The truth if we all have helped and educated the needy and when I say needy I mean the starving the people who can not afford clothes (charity shops take note) giving is essential for all.
It does go right to the top of the chain. Can the government write of world dept if bank trader can walk away losing millions from the rich and still get paid then surely the government (the banks) could do the same. Look up Noble men and women Lords and Lady’s, Kings and Queen’s. These people take from the poor just like Cesar did. The question is do they or did they follow the ways of Abraham or Jesus by way of helping the people with money and gifts that was handed to them in the first place. We only need to look at pensions and council taxes to find the answer. The whole world is not run by God’s word and statutes because we are but men. Again we as individuals have free will and on that we will be Judged.
We all know someone right now that needs some sort of help each of us can assist than someone and I am not just talking about money? In the work place you see your colleague struggling, you can choose to help or choose to laugh about their incapability on your lunch break. You can help a customer with the best deal for them or the worst deal so commission is higher for that end of month bonus. We all can do a little that will make a big difference to someone else.
Riz,
You can see a range of stories of people hearing from God if you register for the email series at http://www.perrymarshall.com/headtrash
Riz,
Here are two of many stories about hearing from God:
https://www.perrymarshall.com/29665/hot-spots-strange-attractors/
(skip down to the story about the guy’s lawsuit)
The following story is published in my book “80/20 Sales & Marketing” which has sold 50,000 copies since 2013, it’s in the epilogue:
https://www.perrymarshall.com/34766/the-story-behind-the-story/
Riz, if you would like to hear from God I can connect you with people who will make that happen. It’s a normal occurrence around here.