Since giving my talk “If You Can Read This I Can Prove God Exists” in 2005, my thinking has evolved tremendously.
This continues to be one of the most hotly debated talks on Origin Of Life on the web.
It sparked a 7-year debate on Infidels. At the time, Infidels.org was the largest atheist website in the world. This went on to become the longest-running, most-viewed thread on the site.
No one overturned my argument. Eventually Infidels did their best to make the whole episode disappear.
“If you can read this” has been pounded hard by thousands of skeptics. Every scientific detail and technical fact still stands intact today, more than 10 years later.
However I must be clear:
I did not prove God exists. What I proved is: There is a vast gap in our knowledge. A gap for which the only known solution is some form of intelligence.
A gap that an awful lot of people (especially atheists) prefer to sweep under the rug.
To the extent that science can prove anything (which is inference not proof), the genetic code proves there is a design principle in biology. Perhaps it’s woven into the very fabric of the universe itself.
Nobody has solved the design problem in biology. Not Charles Darwin, not David Hume, not Richard Dawkins, or anybody else. Nobody knows how to get a code without designing one.
Yet I have grown leery of “God of Gaps” arguments, because they have a long history of eventually failing.
Now what is seldom mentioned is that every time one of these gaps gets filled, the universe shows itself to be even more amazing and elegant than we thought it was before. More orderly. More precise. More capable of taking care of itself. More ingenious. More subtle.
Have you noticed? Every answer science provides us only raises three more questions. The questions never end. And the demand for an ultimate explanation never goes away either. The quantity of “luck” skeptics must invoke to explain it all rises with each passing year.
In the years since I gave that famous talk, I have realized that science cannot deal in ultimate explanations. Science can only peel the onion one more layer.
Which is precisely what we pay scientists to do. No scientist ever gets to say “God did it, that settles it, let’s take a 3-martini lunch.”
To scientists, God-of-gaps arguments give them and their profession the finger.
Many religious people have a hard time understanding this. It doesn’t compute. Often they chalk it up to arrogance or hubris on the part of scientists. But the way most creationists approach the subject grates on scientists. It’s disrespectful to their paychecks and careers.
Theology should never give a scientist an excuse for being lazy.
Frankly, creationists AND atheist fundamentalists like Richard Dawkins, with his “Life is a happy chemical accident” pronouncements, BOTH give scientists an excuse to be lazy.
Which is to say Origin Of Life is a valid field of inquiry. It’s not been very successful thus far, mind you, but it is a necessary science.
To solve this, I have established a $10 million dollar technology prize. I organized a company, Natural Code LLC, a Private Equity Investment group. We seek a solution to Origin Of Information.
As Peter Diamandis proved with his X-Prize for space flight, technology prizes are ideal for Big Problems that government grants have been unsuccessful in solving. Also problems like space flight, which government does solve, but at too much cost.
In creating this prize, I have given up my “god of gaps” argument in exchange for an opportunity to uncover more secrets of this amazing universe we live in.
“God did it, that settles it, let’s take a 3-martini lunch” is not science.
“Life emerged from a warm pond and lucky lightning strike” is also not science.
All we can do is speak the naked truth about what we know. And what we don’t know.
I’ve concluded that the only approach to Origin Of Life which is science, is a large prize. And plenty of of recognition for the person who can solve “Chemicals to Code.”
If somebody solves this, they haven’t eliminated God. What they have done is prove the thesis of my book Evolution 2.0: “Darwinists underestimate nature. Creationists underestimate God.”
May the best man or woman win. And may these silly wars between science and religion stop blinding us to mysteries that beg to be solved.
Perry Marshall
Details on the Evolution 2.0 Technology Prize, funded by Natural Code LLC
Explore existing submissions we’ve gotten for the Evolution 2.0 Prize.
Read “If You Can Read This, I Can Prove God Exists” (2005)
Why “God did it” halts science (even if it’s ultimately true)
Photo by Perry Marshall: Dunmore Head overlooking the Blasket Islands in Coumeenole, Western Ireland.
Download The First 3 Chapters of Evolution 2.0 For Free, Here – https://evo2.org/evolution/Where Did Life And The Genetic Code Come From? Can The Answer Build Superior AI? The #1 Mystery In Science Now Has A $10 Million Prize. Learn More About It, Here – https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0
“What I proved is that there is a vast gap in our knowledge. A gap for which the only known solution is some form of intelligence.”
You have not proved anything; you have observed something: a gap. You have not proved a “known” solution. You have proposed something (one of probably an infinite number of possible solutions) without supporting evidence.
We know of millions of examples of intelligence producing codes. If you can provide any examples of code originating from any specific known source besides intelligence then your argument will stand.
Life isn’t a code. The genetic code is [i]metaphorically[/i] viewed as a code for the sake of human understanding (and the metaphor holds up rather well). But a metaphorical code is not a code. Genetic code is not a (non-genetic) code. The metaphor was created by an intelligence: [i]us[/i]. The thing that it represents, what it actually [i]is[/i], may or may not have its origins in an intelligence, we don’t know, though I know what I believe.
And regardless of whether God (or any other intelligence) created genetics, if God created the universe and the naturalistic and probabilistic forces that generated it, it still ultimately came from an intelligence. Just like the names from a random name generator ultimately came from a human scripter.
Life isn’t a code. The genetic code is metaphorically viewed as a code for the sake of human understanding (and the metaphor holds up rather well). But a metaphorical code is not a code. Genetic code is not a (non-genetic) code. The metaphor was created by an intelligence: us. The thing that it represents, what it actually is, may or may not have its origins in an intelligence, we don’t know, though I know what I believe.
And regardless of whether God (or any other intelligence) created genetics, if God created the universe and the naturalistic and probabilistic forces that generated it, it still ultimately came from an intelligence. Just like the names from a random name generator ultimately came from a human scripter.
(Please remove my previous reply, where I forgot that these comments do not use BBcode. Thank you.)
As I said to another guy in a different thread 20 minutes ago: You are wrong and need to consult a basic biology book. http://evo2.org/dna-atheists/dna-code/ At the bottom of this post you’ll find quotes from about a dozen books I consulted at the Oak Park IL public library, confirming that the pattern in DNA is literally and not figuratively a code.
I have covered the above point to the Nth degree on this website. The page I linked to is a very good start.
If you want to have an ontological argument about whether the information in DNA has some kind of abstract platonic external existence or not, I don’t care. If you say it only “looks like a code” and isn’t “really” a code, then I’ve got a $3 million prize for a completely chemical process that creates a pattern that looks like a digital code. As long as it matches the characteristics in the checklist, you’re good. If you can do that you’ll still win the money regardless of your philosophical position on the existence of abstract entities.
I do understand that you do believe in God but you also think that God used random processes to create codes.
Well theologically that is fine, and 12 years ago I was prepared to discover that this might indeed be the case.
But it’s not. It violates the laws of physics and it’s fiction.
But I’m a communications engineer and I can absolutely assure you, that unless there is some amazing law of physics that has never been discovered, random processes do not and cannot create codes. Randomness can only destroy codes.
Natural Selection is not capable of extracting codes from randomness. The Evolution 2.0 Prize is a search for just such a law of physics. And I do NOT rule out the possibility this could be solved. But nobody has solved it yet.
And by the way, because I know as a mathematical and experimental fact (communications engineer, control systems engineer, audio engineer, equivalent to a minor in mathematics, wrote a 300 page book with an information-centric view of evolution) that randomness can only destroy codes, it makes me mad that YOU have been lied to.
Lied to by people who ought to know better, who make up stories about replicators and warm ponds and lucky lightning strikes and call their stories science when there is nothing scientific about them at all.
You have been misinformed and ripped off. It’s not your fault. But you should be angry, too.
So what is it that a strand of DNA in a fertilized human egg contributes in the constructing, assembling in order and sequence the 37 trillion cells arranged into an adult?
As I said to another guy in a different thread 20 minutes ago: You are wrong and need to consult a basic biology book. http://evo2.org/dna-atheists/dna-code/ At the bottom of this post you’ll find quotes from about a dozen books I consulted at the Oak Park IL public library, confirming that the pattern in DNA is literally and not figuratively a code.
I have covered the above point to the Nth degree on this website. The page I linked to is a very good start.
If you want to have an ontological argument about whether the information in DNA has some kind of abstract platonic external existence or not, I don’t care. If you say it only “looks like a code” and isn’t “really” a code, then I’ve got a $3 million prize for a completely chemical process that creates a pattern that looks like a digital code. As long as it matches the characteristics in the checklist, you’re good. If you can do that you’ll still win the money regardless of your philosophical position on the existence of abstract entities.
I do understand that you do believe in God but you also think that God used random processes to create codes.
Well theologically that is fine, and 12 years ago I was prepared to discover that this might indeed be the case.
But it’s not. It violates the laws of physics and it’s fiction.
But I’m a communications engineer and I can absolutely assure you, that unless there is some amazing law of physics that has never been discovered, random processes do not and cannot create codes. Randomness can only destroy codes.
Natural Selection is not capable of extracting codes from randomness. The Evolution 2.0 Prize is a search for just such a law of physics. And I do NOT rule out the possibility this could be solved. But nobody has solved it yet.
And by the way, because I know as a mathematical and experimental fact (communications engineer, control systems engineer, audio engineer, equivalent to a minor in mathematics, wrote a 300 page book with an information-centric view of evolution) that randomness can only destroy codes, it makes me mad that YOU have been lied to.
Lied to by people who ought to know better, who make up stories about replicators and warm ponds and lucky lightning strikes and call their stories science when there is nothing scientific about them at all.
You have been misinformed and ripped off. It’s not your fault. But you should be angry, too.
“the pattern in DNA is literally and not figuratively a code.” Perry is exactly right, The DNA Code is definitely a code, and a code is language (as is mathematics.) Language is prove positive of rationality.
Rationality means that humans live in a universe that is rationally understandable by language and thought. This is because it is rationally created and structured by a rational Being.
People deny the reality of the genetic code became to admit this fact is to accept the fact that Reality is not purely physical or material. Reality is also rational and immaterial.
These are the same people who cannot admit that the Big Bang says that the universe or Reality has a Beginning, that it was created out of Nothing, no matter, no energy, no space, no time.
However, Reality is not only physical and Rational, Reality is also spiritual because it has purpose and meaning.
Evolution demonstrates that human beings are a part of Nature, we are created as part of the universe. That means that Nature includes rationality and spirituality. Nature can produce thinking and spiritual creatures if Nature did not have rational and spiritual dimensions.
RNA and DNA code emerges from inert organic compounds exposed to electricity. This is a klnown source which is not intelligent.
Use your full first and last name in every post.
Please show where any of these experiments produced code because my investors want to give you some money: http://www.naturalcode.org.
Either you didn’t read, or you didn’t understand Mr. Marshall’s article. DNA is a language. Random happenstance (“organic components exposed to electricity”) would produce degraded matter, not highly ordered matter. Your flimsy explanation in irrational.
Say Fred! I RNA and DNA code emerges from inert organic compounds exposed to electricity, we could do the same thing every day and create RNA and DNA at will. Have you ever done it? No, you have not, because it is not true.
I am sorry but honestly please review leading theories in phyics, science, medicine, metaphysics that there is so much proof of one ultimate God that created such an amazing world that could literally humankind to a whole to level that I find it tragic. It’s been over 2000 years and Worlwide regions have a failed to Unite under one Ultimate combined with all these leaps in humankind knowledge that literally in my opinion very upset. These division over time is very selfish overtime makes harder and harder for humankind to become truly United as an intelligent species.
I agree with Fred. We are self learning computers that become intelligent only through experiences. It’s our own experiences that teach however coupled with the understanding and comprehension of other’s experiences and what they learned from them. I find that the path is not so definitive to the results if opinions were used as a tool and not an outcome. A library is a wealth of information only if you understand that it’s not the books that have the knowledge. It’s the word on the pages of each book that allows all of us ideas to experiment those very ideas for ourselves.
The visual I have is the man with his head up his ass. From the outside he seems rather confused and going in circles. However on the inside he sees the truth. “If you want the truth you go to the source”. The universe is source and the truth will set you free. The answers are always there it’s the perception of it coupled with acceptance of those things.
P.S.
Learn to love yourself Collaboratively DAN
I’m guessing you are referring to the genetic code of DNA here. It’s well known to be produced randomly from sex. A random egg and a random sperm cell unite and combine into new code. All random and unintelligent. If you are referring to any form of code, say H2O or C20H25N3O or some other more complex element, these too are formed randomly.
Full last name please.
Mendelian combination of genes is not random, it is precisely aligned PERMUTATIONS (please do not confuse sheer randomness with permuations, they are two completely different things) which obey very precise rules. And the molecule H2O is not a code in any way shape or form. The written symbol H2O is but that’s entirely different.
So do you believe in God?
Absolutely.
ya, the form of intelligence that you mention it, that is our human call it god! Actually there are life form with ultimate intelligence outside the universe. There create the universe and all the life forms but human call it god in long long time ago.
The onus is on those who believe in a magic catalogue of remarkable coincidences to be explained.The platypus + all insects for instance.
“Knowledge is a priceless gift. But the illusion of knowledge can be more dangerous than ignorance.” – Pico Iyer
Eminent surgeon use to say that life is not in our hand , it is in the hand of God , but ‘ suicide’ is in our hand . Inmost advanced economy we need to agree that the welfare of the population depends upon A’ the business sector , B’ the civility of the population , lastly the Government . Bare in mind that politics and Government had contributed a lot in order to upgrade the scale of Group A and B . Its good that science could answer to all question , it should be good if science could differentiate good and bad , certainly not chemical answer .
Some indisputable facts. Most people of European or Asian ancestry have between 0-4% Neanderthal DNA, due to some early humans migrating from Africa – the birthplace of human evolution – having mated with Neanderthals. How can you reconcile this with the Bible account of ‘creationism which has 0% evidence?
THE SCIENCE BEHIND OMNISCIENCE AND OMNIPRESENCE
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Two scientists have formalized a theorem regarding the existence of God, originally penned by the mathematician, Kurt Gödel! And as a result of their efforts, their formalization will now enable computers to make scientific progress, easier!
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Analyzing a theorem from the late Austrian mathematician with a Macbook, has proven that God exists!– say, the two scientists, Christoph Benzmuller of Berlin’s Free University, and his colleague, Bruno Woltzenlogel Paleo, of the Technical University in Vienna!
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Gödel’s Theorem is based on MODAL LOGIC, a type of formal logic, that– narrowly defined!– involves the use of the expressions, “necessarily”, and “possibly (according, to Stanford University!)”!
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The Theorem, proposes that God– OR A SUPREME BEING!– is that, for which, no greater can be conceived! God exists in the understanding. If God exists in the understanding, we could imagine such to be yet greater than our understanding– beyond which, no greater can be conceived!– by existing, IN REALITY! Thus, God must exist!
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Paleo and Benzmuller say that they have proven that the Theorem is correct!– at least, on a mathermatical level!
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In their initial submission on a research server, “Formalization, Mechanization and Automation of Gödel’s Proof of God’s Existence”, the researchers say, that: “Godel’s ontological proof has been analyzed for the first time with an unprecedented degree of detail, and formality, with the help of higher-order theorem provers.”
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They add: “The following has been done (in the ensuing order): a detailed natural deduction proof; a formalization of the axioms, definitions and theorems in the TPTP THF syntax; automatic verification of the consistency of the axioms and definitions with Nitpick; automatic demonstration of the theorems with the provers, LEO-II and Satallax; a step-by-step formalization using the Coq proof assistant; a formalization using the Isabelle proof assistant, where the theorems (and some additional lemmata) have been automated with Sledgehammer and Metis.”
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In his talks with a representative of the German weekly mag Der Spiegel, Benzmuller states that it’s fascinating how the Theorem could be anaylzed through mathematics! Saying: “It’s totally amazing that from this argument led by Gödel, all this stuff can be proven automatically in a few seconds– or even less!– on a standard notebook computer.”
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To sum, one important further leap forward, would be to prove that God– this Supreme Being!– delivered the person of Jesus Christ to mankind, in order to bring mankind into direct fellowship with Him!… and, His domain! But!… that must await further scientific proofs! Nevertheless!… in the meantime!… by way of the above noted, we have the basis for a fresh new look at Teological and Ontological Science!
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Please!… no emails!
I can literally solve ALL the NOWADAYS problems from, ufo’s to dna to earth age to all wars arriving to PROVING GOD, in my wall I proved a long time ago that evolution is wrong because they found FLESH dinosaur bone with blood which means we lived with dinosaurs and the age they lie about that and the big bang theory is based on gravity and simply flat earth say gravity don’t exists its simply about density
EARTH IS FLAT
please don’t take my words lightly, I’m not alone, go search EARTH IS FLAT you will understand your history plus you will prove that God exist and no one I mean no one can deny that when you dare and try to search for why earth is flat, and when you do find it flat there is no galaxy no evolution I mean literally stupid non sense gravitational theory question will disappear from your face. and God says the dome is my handy work and when you find out the deception about it you will understand the the God existence is been proven a long time ago its just stupid gravity games.
Hello Perry, I hope all is well.
I read through some of the comments you’ve received recently. Many are quite astute, others are not. 🙂 You have great patience.
It is a new year. I wish you good fortune.
“Proof god exists right here but first read this: I have no proof god exists.”
Yup, that’s what I was thinking too.
Hello, Mr. Perry Marshall. Your work is really great and it hugely inspires me. I want to thank you for all the contributions you’ve made for the truth about DNA.
And also, I have a question for all the atheists out there. See, I’ve been in some discussions concerning the existence of God. I asked them the questions like you did and their answers were:
1. DNA is not a code except by analogy (as expected from an atheist). They formed by chance.
2. DNA is just a chemical. Chemicals form all the time.
The question that I asked from these answers was, “If DNA were just a chemical that formed by chance and Earth is almost a billion years old, then must have been plenty of time for the formation of a different type of DNA. But it has been found that every organism on Earth shares the same type of DNA.
http://www.saps.org.uk/saps-associates/browse-q-and-a/473-how-much-dna-do-plants-share-with-humans-over-99
Why is it so?”
I don’t know if it is because there’s some fault in my question or because they don’t have an answer, but they keep ignoring this question. I have asked it three times during the same discussion but they keep changing the topic to “DNA is not a code dude.”
DNA *is* a code and I have all the ammo you need to address that here:
http://www.evo2.org/dna-atheists
as well as
http://www.naturalcode.org – $3 million prize. The specification explains precisely why DNA is code and provides ample references. Anyone who thinks DNA isn’t a code is fundamentally unfamiliar with the history of Watson, Crick, Gamow and the very definitions. It’s in every biology book for crying out loud.
Have you heard of tao?
“Which is to say Origin Of Life is a valid field of inquiry. It’s not been very successful thus far, mind you, but it is a necessary science.” The answer is clearly and in most details given in Vedas. And the same answer is also given in Bible, but in a very brief way. I have explained it in many articles and in a book also. Nobody could contradict yet.
But before I repeat the answer, I want to clarify the differences between religions and the books of religions. They are not the same. Here is the most important difference: There are two definitions of God, one given by all the religions, call it RD. And the other one is given by all the books of all religions, call it BD. RD is wrong and BD is correct. The two definitions are:
RD = God is the creator of the universe. – This wrong
BD = “God is spirit.” as mentioned in Bible. – This is correct.
BD says you have a soul, and that soul has created you. In the same way, I have a soul, and that soul has created me. Similarly, every object in the universe has a soul, and that soul has created that object. Therefore RD cannot be correct. Thus electrons, protons, quarks, etc., if they exist then all have their own soul, and their souls have created them. The tables, chairs, computer, electronics, all are created from the materials of the universe, therefore they all have souls.
There are many proofs of BD also. Princeton University has demonstrated that electronic circuit boards can respond to human concentration. Similarly, water molecules also changes its crystal shapes depending on your intentions. Thus body cells, proteins, acids, bases, etc., all have souls. Anything that is created, is created by a soul, and therefore has intelligence.
Bible says –“We are made out of dust.” This is also correct, all objects in the universe, from tiny electrons to massive galaxies, are all created by its soul from this dust. This dust is not the dust on earth; it is the cosmic dust that spans the entire universe. Soul particles also span the universe. For more details take a look at https://www.academia.edu/38590496/A_COMPARISON_OF_MODERN_SCIENCE_WITH_VEDIC_SCIENCE
I’m just wondering why the author’s name is not listed with the article at the top? Anonymous is not good. Is a poster claiming to be the author?
all articles are by me unless otherwise stated
Why hasn’t anyone said the obvious.
LOVE.
It is the code if you want to metaphorically name it’s relevance.
God as we call Him, His existence simply IS.
Understanding Him i.e. God’s Mind is to understand His deity and except the fact that He has a Holy Spirit which no man will ever fully understand.
Science is for man’s explanation for everything that exist. Man’s “spirit” is our only way of connecting to the Holy Spirit.
I said that that you may understand how everything came into existence. It was spoken. There is no code, only “the word”
Remember, “energy” forms everything into existence.
Again, God simply IS
If we “draw a circle around “all matter and energy” then what lies outside the circle will be that which is OTHER THAN matter and energy. If we use this same method to draw a circle around all things and include “all information and consciousness,” wouldn’t that which lies outside the circle then be that which is NOT of “information or consciousness?”
Since information is made up of finite symbols, it seems like information is something like matter and energy which are also finite.
I’m not sure whether you can say the same thing about consciousness. If consciousness can be boundless and infinite (which matter and energy obviously are not) then inferring that God is conscious is reasonable.
I have to commend you for asking a great question because I had never thought about this specifically before.
The Greeks considered the logos to be that which mediates between the perfect unchanging platonic world of perfect principles, and the ever-changing physical world of imperfect forms. [Ref “From Logos to Bios by Wynand DeBeer] Since information is related to logos (logos is a much bigger idea) this suggests the notion of information being the highest expression of the physical world.
In Christianity the Logos is the revelation of God within the cosmos.
As a scientist who has observed events in the news for 80 years, I think efforts to prove God’s existence by looking, restrospectively, for evidence in the distant past is a waste. It lacks critical elements of the scientific method. Evidence must be factual, quantifiable, and reproducible by independent observers. Predicted End-Time events, described in Bible prophecies, are faith-based expectations until they occur, then they are facts that can be tabulated and tested for validity by proper application of the scientific method. I have done that with data provided by fulfilled prophecies. Many of those facts produced necessary and sufficient, reproducible evidence that validates the existence of the God of the Bible. He is Real.
can someone please tell me who the author is so that I may site them in my dissertation, thanks in advance 🙂
Me, Perry Marshall. And let us know about your dissertation when it comes out!
Read all the way through, please.
This sounds like a clue or key to something we’ve been looking for, but right in front of our eyes. Though it may not be clear enough for us to see, because of the blinders that are on us 24/7, it is there. The questions about everything and anything are what I think hold us back. If we just look at the completely unexplainable like people finally believing the world is NOT flat and the sun revolves around our home. We could possibly discover things that we too wouldn’t believe at first. And To question our existence, everything around us, and god is like questioning our own mother’s about everything and arguing with her back when the department of child services didn’t exist. We don’t win unless we learn. For all we know we could be either the only planet with humanoids, creatures and/or any life at all.
Or we could be the one of the quintillion of other planets out there with anything and/or everything we could need. In the coming population explosion of our planet. Just think about it.
I AM NOT A SCIENTIST JUST A NEW HIGHSCHOOL STUDENT PUTTING SOME OF MY AUTISTIC INTELLIGENCE INPUT OUT THERE!