For 25 years Richard Morgan was a card-carrying atheist and flaming Richard Dawkins fan. Born in the UK, living in France, he came to Chicago to tell this special story.
Richard had a radical conversion experience in 2008. Not only did it rock his world in an instant, it incited a riot on the Dawkins Internet discussion board. Despite his mannerly approach, he was quickly banished from the forum.
In this video, Richard tells you his strange yet wonderful story. (It’s featured in the book “The Dawkins Letters” by David Robertson, 2nd edition.)
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In response to Fred Hahn:
Fred said: I think god could find a way to make it quite clear. Moses knew.
I say: On the one hand, you say you don’t believe in God. Then you say that God made it clear to Moses who he was so he should be able to do the same for you. In other words, it seems you’re affirming that God is real and he spoke to Moses. So you’re contradicting yourself.
Fred said: Even dying and coming back to life can be explained by the fact that he never actually died. This too has happened – people thought to be dead have revived.
I say: How many of these people who you say weren’t really dead came back to life after having been beaten almost to death and suffering massive blood loss, then hung on a cross for hours literally drowning in their own body fluids, then had a sword shoved up through their side into their hearts, were then wrapped in suffocating cloths sealed with resin like Crazy Glue and placed in a tomb for three days, going without food or water all that time?
I think that proponents of the swoon theory should put their money where their mouths are and re-enact the whole procedure if they honestly think it is possible to survive all of that.
Fred said: I am not demanding that god heal an amputee. I am wondering why he has never done it.
I say: How do you know he hasn’t? To be able to say with certainty that God never has is to say that you know the story of every single person who has ever lived in the entire history of the world including the seven billion people who currently populate this planet. I don’t think you have the information to be able to make the claim you have made.
Fred said: Laying of the hands has also failed Perry. Like I said, it has to be something that could not possible happen on its own.
I say: Laying on of hands cured me and the doctor said it was impossible for my medical problem to go away on its own. An endoscope showed that the lining of my stomach was raw and bleeding and a biopsy (done twice to make sure) showed it was infested with bacteria. I could not take the antibiotics necessary to solve the problem as I am allergic to them to the extent that they, themselves, could kill me.
So I went to a pastor with a healing ministry. He laid hands on me and prayed. All of my symptoms (constant pain, nausea, indigestion) immediately cleared up. I was scheduled for another endoscopy that very week with yet another gastroenterologist. It revealed that my stomach was completely healed. The lining was pink and healthy and there was no bacteria. I asked the doctor how it could have gotten better on its own and he said he had no idea because it wasn’t something that could clear up without medical intervention. God healed me. It’s that simple.
Fred said: If you told your daughter not to cross a certain street and while she was outside playing, a fake policeman lied to her and told her that you said that she should cross the street and so she did, would you be mad at your daughter?
I say: You’re missing the point. Your daughter listened to a complete stranger instead of a person who loves her and is worthy of her trust. And if you truly want to parallel a story of your daughter crossing the street with the Fall, then the end result of her folly would have been this: She would have been run over by a bus and was killed, lost to you forever. Isn’t that reason enough to be angry? Are you telling me you wouldn’t be upset by that?
You see God says “don’t” meaning, don’t do this because it is dangerous and you will be hurt and I don’t want you to be hurt because I love you. And you completely overlook the fact that God didn’t just let humanity go because of the Fall. He introduced a plan of salvation as early as Gen. 3:15 and he saw it through to completion in the person of Jesus Christ.
As for evidence reL the existence of God, there is all kinds of it — cosmological, axiological, teleological, historical, etc. One of my favourite sites is run by ex-atheist J. Warner Wallace of Pleaseconvinceme.com. He’s a cold case homicide detective and he decided to apply the same methodology he used at work to the issue of the existence of God. He found that the evidence would stand up in any courtroom and that opened the door to Jesus.
You said: “I say: Laying on of hands cured me and the doctor said it was impossible for my medical problem to go away on its own. An endoscope showed that the lining of my stomach was raw and bleeding and a biopsy (done twice to make sure) showed it was infested with bacteria. I could not take the antibiotics necessary to solve the problem as I am allergic to them to the extent that they, themselves, could kill me. So I went to a pastor with a healing ministry. He laid hands on me and prayed. All of my symptoms (constant pain, nausea, indigestion) immediately cleared up. I was scheduled for another endoscopy that very week with yet another gastroenterologist. It revealed that my stomach was completely healed. The lining was pink and healthy and there was no bacteria. I asked the doctor how it could have gotten better on its own and he said he had no idea because it wasn’t something that could clear up without medical intervention. God healed me. It’s that simple.”
First I’m glad you’re healed. That’s fantastic.
Second, would you be willing to email me the medical reports that show your diagnosis and the one where you were miraculously healed? While I’d like to believe you, I need evidence. If this did indeed occur, I’d think you’d be happy to share it.
Also, why isn’t this healer going around to every hospital healing people? Why isn’t he in the NY Times?
Yes, I am also waiting. Can I get the name of the healer please? One of my close ones has some serious medical condition.
You also said: “I say: You’re missing the point. Your daughter listened to a complete stranger instead of a person who loves her and is worthy of her trust. And if you truly want to parallel a story of your daughter crossing the street with the Fall, then the end result of her folly would have been this: She would have been run over by a bus and was killed, lost to you forever. Isn’t that reason enough to be angry? Are you telling me you wouldn’t be upset by that?”
Eve didn’t die. And if God knew that she was going to eat from the tree, why did God create it? To tempt her? To test her? To do these things knowing all along what the outcome was going to be in the first place?
That’s like me not wanting my daughter to get hit by a car and instead of moving to Wyoming, I build us a house on a highway.
Hey Fred, just wanted to make one short comment. God is okay with your questions, but to know Him you have to get to a point where you want to know God Himself MORE than you want to know the answers to all your questions. If you truly want God to be real, then have to want to know Him more than you want to know the answers to all your questions. He may answer some, none, or all, but if you humble yourself and realize that knowing God is so much more important and so much greater than getting all your questions answered, He will reveal Himself to you. Hope this helps, know that God loves you very much.
I have no idea what this means. So if he answers some, none, or all how would I know which? Why is he so elusive? I would answer ALL my children’s questions. In fact, I’d bend over backwards to do so. Hear what you said – God might not answer – who does HE think HE is?? Think of the self righteous pride in that – ignoring your very own child.
Fred, I’m astonished at your critical attitude towards everything. God is not being elusive by not answering your questions, you are being prideful to think He has to answer them all. God knows the truth that you need and He knows that the answer to all your questions is truly found in Jesus. You say you would answer all your children’s questions, I’m curious if you even have children if you say that. I have a daughter who of course asks me questions all the time, but guess what, sometimes she’s not ready to here the answers, sometimes she asks illogical questions that don’t need an answer, and sometimes she asks great questions. Therefore, I don’t answer all of her questions because her questions don’t always need answers. What I’m trying to say is that if God is God, don’t you think He knows your heart and your mind and whether or not He needs to answer your questions or if He needs to answer the real question. Look at Jesus in the Bible, sometimes people would ask Him a question and He wouldn’t answer what they asked, He would give a parable that took down all their presumptions and pointed them to the truth. He gave them the answer the needed to a question they didn’t know they needed to ask. You calling God prideful shows your own pride and lack of humility. If God is God, does He not have the right to give you answers in His timing and in His way. By the way, a child of God is someone who has given their life to God, until you become a child of God how can you even begin to treat God as a Father and make that comparison of you and your own children. I’m sorry if my tone is frustrated, I don’t mean that. I just want you to understand that knowing God is more than just answering all your questions and that the questions are not the issue, it’s your heart wanting to even give up the questions, for the sake of knowing God who created you. I honestly think you could get all your questions answered and then still come up with more and find a reason not to believe. You spoke in one comment about Moses believing in God because He saw Him face to face. The Israeli people that God led out of Egypt through Moses also saw the amazing wonders and signs and miracles of God in leading them out of Egypt and taking care of them and yet they complained and grumbled and did not show much faith. Again, it was an issue of the heart, not of the miracles or signs, or their questions. They were not willing to submit themselves and their hearts to God, which is what He wants from us. Also one more thought, say your 4 year old asks you a question like, “Why are some roses red,” and your go on to answer scientifically about pigmentation and cellular structure. You will sound very intelligent and correct in your answer, but do you think your child will understand you or feel closer to you? If anything they will feel like you are speaking a different language or that your knowledge is so great, how could they ever understand you, or be close to you. If you truly desire to know God, and not just know about God then you need to humble yourself and fear God. Proverbs says that the fear of God is beginning of wisdom. You want to be wise and understand, the start with humility and fear before God.
Bravo. Fred, I agree with everything he said.
To a prideful person, God is a trillion miles away. You will NEVER find God if you treat Him like he’s supposed to submit to your demands. Ever.
On the other hand He gives grace to the Humble. This is from Isaiah 42:
1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”
5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
WMoody – You said:
“Fred, I’m astonished at your critical attitude towards everything.”
Say what? I’m critical towards everything? How would you know that?
“God is not being elusive by not answering your questions, you are being prideful to think He has to answer them all.”
He hasn’t answered any directly that I’m aware of.
“God knows the truth that you need and He knows that the answer to all your questions is truly found in Jesus.”
Jesus. This is what I mean. You are completely unaware of how bigoted that statement is to people of other faiths.
“You say you would answer all your children’s questions, I’m curious if you even have children if you say that.”
I have two daughters.
“I have a daughter who of course asks me questions all the time, but guess what, sometimes she’s not ready to here the answers,”
So you ignore her and give her no answer at all?
“sometimes she asks illogical questions that don’t need an answer,”
Again, do you just ignore her and not answer her at all or try to help her formulate a logical argument?
“and sometimes she asks great questions. Therefore, I don’t answer all of her questions because her questions don’t always need answers.”
As I see it, all questions asked by your children deserve an answer – every last one of them – no matter how stupid or illogical the question may be.
“What I’m trying to say is that if God is God, don’t you think He knows your heart and your mind and whether or not He needs to answer your questions or if He needs to answer the real question.”
Clearly not.
“Look at Jesus in the Bible, sometimes people would ask Him a question and He wouldn’t answer what they asked, He would give a parable that took down all their presumptions and pointed them to the truth. He gave them the answer the needed to a question they didn’t know they needed to ask.”
It would have been a lot better if he’d have been more direct.
“You calling God prideful shows your own pride and lack of humility. If God is God, does He not have the right to give you answers in His timing and in His way.”
I was making the point that if God knows I really need an answer and chooses not to answer just because he’s God and doesn’t have to that is the definition of prideful – the way you are using the word.
“By the way, a child of God is someone who has given their life to God, until you become a child of God how can you even begin to treat God as a Father and make that comparison of you and your own children.”
Ah – now I’m seeing something interesting. Unless I drink the Kool Aid, I can’t taste it. God set it up this way. He knew that there would be billions of people someday who would be skeptical of a god in the sky. Since this is true, he should not be bothered by my questions and skepticism. Par for the course.
“I’m sorry if my tone is frustrated, I don’t mean that. I just want you to understand that knowing God is more than just answering all your questions and that the questions are not the issue, it’s your heart wanting to even give up the questions, for the sake of knowing God who created you. I honestly think you could get all your questions answered and then still come up with more and find a reason not to believe.”
My life is going just fine. I’m happy, have a loving wife, two wonderful daughters, a successful business, great in-laws, friends, great health, etc. The issue is simply this: Is he really there or isn’t he? There is absolutely not a shred of evidence that he is and huge amounts to indicate he is not. But if he is, and he really wants us to know that he does in fact exist, what in the world is he waiting for???
“You spoke in one comment about Moses believing in God because He saw Him face to face. The Israeli people that God led out of Egypt through Moses also saw the amazing wonders and signs and miracles of God in leading them out of Egypt and taking care of them and yet they complained and grumbled and did not show much faith.”
It’s a story.
“Again, it was an issue of the heart, not of the miracles or signs, or their questions. They were not willing to submit themselves and their hearts to God, which is what He wants from us.”
Don’t you see that this is the definition of a make-believe system and not reality? Do you REALLY not see this? This is what I meant when I said that once you do in fact get it, it is an epiphany.
“Also one more thought, say your 4 year old asks you a question like, “Why are some roses red,” and your go on to answer scientifically about pigmentation and cellular structure. You will sound very intelligent and correct in your answer, but do you think your child will understand you or feel closer to you?”
Yes I do. Helping your child to understand the realities of the world around them is a very loving and caring thing to do. I am currently reading them the new book by Richard Dawkins called The Magic of Reality.
“If anything they will feel like you are speaking a different language or that your knowledge is so great, how could they ever understand you, or be close to you.”
Where in the world are you getting this idea from? My kid asks me “Daddy, why is the sky blue?” and after explaining why they’d feel distanced? That is utterly ridiculous.
“If you truly desire to know God, and not just know about God then you need to humble yourself and fear God. Proverbs says that the fear of God is beginning of wisdom. You want to be wise and understand, the start with humility and fear before God.”
Humble myself before him and fear him. Lovely. That’s the type of guy I want as my dad. No thank you.
Fred, why are you even on this forum? You are basically saying that God has to come to you in your terms rather than His. Saying Jesus is the only way to God is a very exclusive statement, and one I believe fully. So if it’s bigoted then sorry but that’s the truth. I don’t hate any other people of other faiths, I love them and want to share the truth with them. You said, “But if he is, and he really wants us to know that he does in fact exist, what in the world is he waiting for???”
I say God’s didn’t wait, He sent Jesus and that is His answer for how we can have a relationship with God. Again God gave you a way to come to Him, it’s up to you to accept that. He revealed Himself to the world in the person of Jesus and His death and sacrifice on the cross for our sins shows how much He loves us and wants us to know Him. I do wonder again, why are you on this forum? If you are here just to argue with people and tell people they are wrong for believing in Jesus, then I suggest you are just wasting time. If you really are wanting to know God, then please have an open ear. My heart is burdened for you because you seem so angry against all this and I don’t know why. Did something happen to you to make you so angry about all this?
WMoody1471 : You say, ” If you are here just to argue with people and tell people they are wrong for believing in Jesus, then I suggest you are just wasting time.” I beg to differ.
Far from wasting his time, Fred is FILLING his time with an activity which gives him satisfaction in some way. As long as folks keep replying and reacting to him, he will not feel that his time here is being wasted.
Dialogue and exchange are what identify us as human beings, and these forums thrive on all kinds of expression, be they angry, insulting, thoughtful, profound, insightful or inspired.
An Internet Forum is certainly more hygienic that walls in public toilets (rest rooms) where angry but socially handicapped people would go to smear their bile and hatred by smearing excreta everywhere. At least you can’t catch any painful disease by participating in these discussions!
I am happy to see the Freds and greyfoxes of this world join us here. They, too, have their story to tell. I’m listening.
I have to agree on this with Richard.
yeah I guess your right, better to dialogue than to not, thanks Richard.
To WMoody1471,
WMoody1471:” I don’t hate any other people of other faiths, I love them and want to share the truth with them.”
samd: So do you think that the prople of other faiths do not know the Truth or their faith is about something which is un-truth? Why do you think what you know is the Truth? Do you believe in it or is it somehting you tried to prove and came to the conclusion that it is the ultimate Truth? Looks like you did not go thorugh the later path… if you really tried yourself then you would not be saying what you are saying here in this forum… you would be a completely different person… a Godlike person and you will be much ahead of us in Godly qualities… you will have a pure heart, and infinite love to others, you will be always happy and not bothered by wordly things, you will have complete dissatisfaction with materialistic world and you will have infinite wisdom, and you will have an Godlike aura and everybody will be attracted to you and so on and so on…
Well from your posts here, it does not look like you are so close to God… looks like you just believe in the Truth and have not spent enough time to prove it or see it yourself… then PLEASE do believe in this truth as well: “There are many ways to reach the same Truth”. What you want to share, is the way or path you believe in… which is 1 out of trillions of trillions of ways to reach the Truth. Well, if you REALLY love the people of other Truths… then please… please for God’s sake – leave them alone. They are on a path and evntually they will reach the Truth… do not share your “path” – because their path is as efficient as yours, your path is as good and efficient as any of the other trillions of paths… so please keep it to yourself.
If you have too much time on your hand to “help” others… then please forget about religion, path, and God and all these… and do help the beggers on the streets of US, donate some to the soup kitchen, help (donate your money to help) poor kids in other countries with clean water, vaccination, food etc., help educate the underprivileged kids… and for God’s sake, do not talk about God. Talk about science, talk about arts, logic, math, health, hygiene etc. and let them figure out the other things like religion by themselves. Do not spoil things and keep it natural by not preaching. If you are already doing these… then hats off to you and I bow to you in respect.
samd: If I believe someone will spend eternity in Hell and that the truth in the Bible can save them, the most unloving thing I could do is sit back and not share what I believe. That would be me saying I want them to go to hell. Now whether or not you believe any of this is not the point of the argument, the point is that I do, so for me the most loving thing I can do is share with people the words of Jesus. He said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (God) except through me.” I’m not trying to saying anything arrogantly, I’m just quoting Jesus when I say He is the only way to God. He said it Himself. We all have a choice of whether or not we want to believe. I fully believe Jesus is the only way to God and because I do love people, I want them to know this truth, and I wish you could hear my heart about this. I’m not saying this out of of any bitterness or anger or judgement of others belief’s, I’m sharing this out of love because I don’t want anyone to go to hell and I want people to have an amazing relationship with God through trusting in Jesus and accepting this truth.
samd: Your last statements about me not helping anybody just show your judgmental attitude. I don’t have a whole lot financial resources, but my wife and I give about 20% of what we get in away. We support a child in India and in the Philippines. Our finances do go to help poor people, and soup kitchens. We are actually missionaries and spend our lives helping people. My wife’s daughter was an underprivileged child because she never had a dad and lived with an alcoholic grandfather and alcoholic grandmother and I adopted her and have taken her as my own. So before you quickly judge, have all the facts.
I already told you in the last post:
“If you are already doing these… then hats off to you and I bow to you in respect.”
So I am not showing my judgmental attitude at all.
Well your belief and my beliefs are different. Keep your belief and I will keep mine. But just to be rational here: so do you think all good men and women who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell but if all the rapists, drug-dealers and child molesters do whatever sin they do, but still believe and trust in Jesus will still go to heaven?
That does not seem very fair!!
And why would a fair, impersonal, almighty God would only allow followers of Jesus to go to heaven and not the others? Step back a little and use your own judgement and not just believe in everything?
If you are a father, then let’s assume your eldest son (assume his name is Jesus) is the most pious and the best son anybody could ever have. Now let’s assume you have 4 other sons. Now if your eldest one Jesus makes a family code of conduct and write down in a book for your other 4 sons that they will only be loved by you and allowed to stay in your house, if and only if they talk to him or trust him – will you as the father of all 5 of your sons agree to this code of conduct? What if all of your 4 sons are good persons, they love you so much and they listen to you and they all need your love. Will you still refuse them just becuase some of them do not listen to Jesus (your first son)?
If you allow Jesus to do this – then you are not a very good father. And I thought the God almighty is the best father of all who has infinite love and everything!
WMoody1471, I am waiting for your answer to my question above…
“Will you still refuse them just becuase some of them do not listen to Jesus (your first son)?”
WMoody1471, I am still waiting for your answer to my question above…
“Will you still refuse them just becuase some of them do not listen to Jesus (your first son)?”
To WMoody1471…
Well looks like you do not have any answer to my question. I kind of expected that.
And even if your rational mind knows the answer – you are either blind to it or cannot accept it as your religious belief will then be in question.
BTW: This is how we, rational people, think and try to see things clearly. So my suggestion would be that: wake up and start questioning things – do not be so afraid. Do not just believe in what is written in one book if it does not make any sense.
I didn’t respond because I don’t agree with the assumption about Jesus being one of 4 sons. I’ve told you what I believe, you understand, why are you still asking me questions about it? Jesus is the only Son of God, there aren’t others, or other paths/sons, so I can’t answer a question when I don’t agree with the premise.
WMoody1471 : “If you truly desire to know God, and not just know about God then you need to humble yourself and fear God. Proverbs says that the fear of God is beginning of wisdom.”
samd: that proverb is something we need to be afraid of. If I need to fear my God then that relationship is very scary. Fearing anyone cannot give wisdom. I should be afraid of my own wrong-doing. As I sow so I reap. So if I have done something wrong in the past – I need to be afraid of that. Why should I fear God? I would rather Love God and not worry about fearing Him/Her.
To Wmoody1471 / seventy,
With due respect…
No I do not understand your belief.
So what you are saying is Jesus is the only son of God and we are not God’s sons or daughters?
So what are we?
Why do you call God as “Father” then?
What you say, in my experience, is absolutely false. I did that route for 25 years. I didn’t ask lots of questions, in fact, I didn’t ask any, until I started reading and getting more educated in life and reality. When I started asking questions and questioning things that just didn’t really make sense, I learned that people started getting defensive, because they couldn’t answer my questions. But I found the answers; they just don’t match what I was convinced I knew. I can tell that you just accept things without question; even the Bible does not agree with that, it says, prove all things. When one does that, then the proof is in the pudding, so the saying goes. Feelings are ok in the proper context, but they can be very deceiving many times; logic is what makes the world go around. I believe that some people can’t handle the truth, because it turns their world up-side-down. I have no agenda, so it’s easy to be fair with everyone, but they do have to produce.
No one should believe a word this guy says. I was a member of the old Richard Dawkins’ forum from day one, and on staff for most of that time. The schisms and ultimate shutdown of the forum were not due to anything this guy said or did. He’s just another liar for Jesus.
Hi, ElaineC. I, too was present on RDNet almost from the beginning. I have a lot of very fond memories of those days, but I don’t remember any “ElaineC”. Perhaps you were posting uder a different pseudo back in 2006.
Today I harbour no ill feelings towards Richard Dawkins and those who viciously turned against me when I became a Christian.
If you feel I have made any misrepresentations or flights of fancy, perhaps you would be good enough to point them out to us. I will happily acknowledge any errors in my account.
(When I first read the words, “No one should believe a word this guy says,” my initial reaction was, “Good grief, one of my ex-wives has turned up!” But you aren’t one of that happy band, are you, ElaineC?
Are you?)
Well, while you are still happy because you believe all your ex wives are still turned off, please tell us more about that stuff that, as you said, “cannot describe or share with us”.
For example I am curious how you can be sure you are talking about Christian God because there are more Gods out there ???
Zoran
Zoran Ozimec : normally I am happy to reply to curious teenagers, but your manner frankly does not encourage dialogue.
However, if you would be good enough to explain how YOU would describe the taste of salt to somebody who has never tasted salt or anything salty, I will model my reply on yours and have a go at describing the indescribable, OK?
Deal?
You say, using three unnecessary question marks, “For example I am curious how you can be sure you are talking about Christian God because there are more Gods out there ???”
Could you please quote me as saying that I was “sure” I was talking about the Christian God?
Would you then go on to give some information concerning all the other gods that you appear to believe are “out there”? A dozen or so would do the trick, I think.
Then I will attempt to give you some of the distinguishing features of the God of the Bible, in whom I have put all my trust.
Sorry Richard if you find my reply a bit unpleasant, this time I will stick to facts.
“Could you please quote me as saying that I was “sure” I was talking about the Christian God?”
Well, you just answered your question at the end of your reply saying “..God of the Bible, in whom I have put all my trust” . From that I will assume you put all your thrust in God you are talking about, right?
Regarding other Gods, I was referring to Gods associated to many world religions presently in existence. That does not necessarily mean I believe they exist out there as you suggested, just that people of this planet do. If you think a dozen or so “would do the trick” we can count them together here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God .
As far as “salt” is concerned I would choose the simplest method, just give anybody interested to try it! Do not take it hard if I say that religion seems to run out of “salt”.
Zoran
Zoran : “religion seems to run out of “salt”.” Nicely put. I like it! That could become another atheist sound-bite – catchy and convincing – until you think about it.
You give the natural and only correct reply possible to my “salt” challenge – “just give anybody interested to try it!”
Let’s look at that a little more closely. In order for somebody to have the experience of the taste of salt, what conditions would be required? Let me suggest a few, and then see how they can be applied to an awareness of God.
1) You said it yourself – an interest;
2) Having salt available;
3) (and this is a biggy) – being able to trust the person who is inviting you to ingest these small white grains that were hitherto unknown to you;
4)Physically taking the actions necessary for the salt to land in your mouth.
Now, if the only salt available was on another continent, then you would have to make considerable efforts to get at it. This implies a motivation far beyond a passing interest.
At this point, if having the experience of the taste of salt is no more than a passing fancy, I think you would probably turn your attention to a Hershey bar or something.
Can you think about comparable steps concerning the saltiness of the existence of God? Obviously I can, otherwise I wouldn’t have initiated this exercise.
As far as your multiple Gods are concerned, could you do some leg-work for me and select from your Wiki-list, those Gods that have had pride of place in human societies for at least three thousand years, in a way comparable to the Abrahamic God?
Thank you.
To Richard,
Salt is available everywhere. Salt is available in my heart. I am “Salt”. We are “Salt”. We are a reflection of God. God is within us. Each one of us, including you and me are capable of experiencing God, within us. So the comparison does not fit very well.
A direct question to you? “Have you experienced God?” From your posts, it does not seem like it. If you have experienced the infinitely loving, almighty God, then your posts would not be filled with comparing one vs another and holding one path higher than another. Period.
Why do you want to compare Abrahamic God with any othere God? Again, are they different? To me they are not. God sent his likes (some people call them Avatar) to World to direct us in the right direction.
If you would like to know, then just for the sake of arguing, I can say that Buddhism, Jainism, Hindusim are there long before any Abrahamic God (Buddha and Mahavir were born more than 500 years before Christ was born and Hinduism is too old – more than 5000 years I believe).
But, let’s step back. Who are you kidding? To me Buddha and Christ are same. To you, they are different, which tells me that you cannot… you cannot compare steps concerning saltiness of the existence of God.
Thank you.
Richard, it seems that “samd” spent more than 10 seconds “thinking about it” .
Zoran
Zoran : You say that samd has spent more than 10 seconds thinking about…something. I encourage him to persist in this way, and with practice, his thinking might become constructive and useful.
Thank you for pointing this out to me, Zoran.
(Since you appear to have a relatively limited attention span, may I point out that the 10 seconds that Perry refers to were not spent in “thinking about it”. Maybe you would like to watch the video again.
Well Richard, you and Zoran are fundamentally wrong. God of Bible is no different than God from another religion. When you are attempting to give distinguishing features of the God of the Bible, you are giving the same features for the other Gods as well – rather the same God as well.
God is one. He/She took many form in this world of Him/Her to show righteousness and direct His/Her children in the proper way. If a book says that the way it tells you to reach God is the only way, then it is not God’s book – because it propagates division among His/her children. God accepts all the ways, any of the ways you can reach Him/Her. He/She needs the purity of the heart and love for Him/Her and love for His/Her children.
It does not matter what book you follow, if you are not pure in your heart, if you do not love all the living beings irrespectives of where they come from or what they believe, you are nowhere close to God.
“samd” , why do you think I am fundamentally wrong? I did not show any preference to any God like Richard did. I did not put all my trust in anything but our ability to learn and that does not include unjustified belief. What I am looking for here is justification that could transform any of offered beliefs into the truth, which than means, knowledge. I am confident your thinking is pointing into the right direction.
Thank you Perry for opening this discussion which, although I initially said in one of my previous replies, is “diverging from conclusion as it grows”, is beginning to show, as it grows further, a real possibility to converge toward conclusion, a good thing I hope.
Zoran
IS THERE A TRUE GOD? WHOSE WISDOM IS HOLY AND INFINITE?—THESE ARE THE COMMON GROUNDS OF THE DISCUSSED THINGS USING SCHOLASTIC REASONINGS YET FINITE IN ITS OWN ESSENCE.
IF GOD HAD A BEGINNING, THEN BEFORE HE BEGUN THERE WAS NOTHING. NOW WITH NOTHING TO WORK UPON WHICH MEAN NO POWER, NO HOLINESS AND NO WISDOM–NOTHING AT ALL—THESE ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS CAN NOT OF COURSE BE CONVERTED INTO SOMETHING AND INTO EXISTENCE BECAUSE FROM NOTHING, NOTHING COMES; NOTHING ITSELF HAS NO WISDOM, NOTHING ITSELF HAS NO POWER, THEREFORE,NO CAPABILITY OF CONVERTING ITSELF INTO SOMETHING OR CAN PRODUCE SOMETHING! THE FACT IS THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS AROUND US MUTE THINGS THAT CAN NOT EVEN SPELL “GOD” ; NOT EVEN EQUIP WITH SCHOLASTIC REASONING YET THE MERE EXISTENCE OF THESE THINGS PROVED THAT THERE IS A GOD THAT CAUSED THEM TO EXIST OUT OF NOTHINGNESS AND OUT HIS INFINITE WISDOM! THEREFORE, THIS GOD EXIST! HOW CAN WE PROVE WHAT IS INFINITE USING OUR FINITE SCHOLASTIC DISPROVING REASONING?
Please do not post in all caps, in the future I will delete such posts.
Perry said:
“The healing of the deaf man was documented by the Charlotte Observer and the healing of both blind and deaf people by laying on of hands is documented under peer review in Southern Medial journal. All links I have mentioned are available on this page.”
Perry – please give us the exact links to the Journal article. And is this is the only one?
The Charlotte Observer is not a medical journal.
I accept no responsibility for your unwillingness to read this article and find the links which I have referenced. If you wish to participate, read the article and the paper from SMJ.
Here it is:
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/09000/Study_of_the_Therapeutic_Effects_of_Proximal.5.aspx
Perry – this is hardly evidence of a miracle. It has all the trappings of perception. A real miracle is something that cannot otherwise happen without the intervention of a supernatural being like god.
Even the sun vanishing from the sky can be scientifically explained.
Let’s see an amputated limb grow back in 5 minutes time. That would be miraculous.
Let’s see an obese woman become thin in 5 minutes.
Let’s see someone without any eyeballs grow two new ones in an instant.
Let’s see someone with Down’s syndrome become completely normal in a week.
Let’s see a pituitary giant shrink to normal overnight.
Let’s see conjoined twins wake up completely separate.
Shall I go on?
Fred, good point(s). However, remember that religious faith is a belief, and although evidence is not required you are insisting on rather hard one. Even though, believers will try to provide evidence you asked for because they do seek some kind of verification although they do not like to admit it. At the end, when you get what you asked for, be prepared to deal with additional variable, the faith within faith, that is, the belief in evidence !
Zoran
Zoran – Fine. But then why talk about miracles at all? If he wasn’t trying to get people to believe he was the son of god, why did Jesus perform “miracles” at all if it is supposed to be ALL about faith and belief?
And why did Jesus call himself the bread of life when bread is a processed, nutrient void food that is not very good for you. Wheat in particular is full of anti-nutrients. We know this today thanks to science.
If Jesus is god, why didn’t Jesus refer to himself as the “meat of life” when meat is the most nutrient dense food of all? Something to ponder.
Fred, you have right to believe that miracles described in the Bible are true events and those mentioned in the journal to have all the trappings of perception. On the other side, scientists do not take Bible for granted and do not consider miracles described in the Bible to be truth without the evidence. Because of that, Perry is trying to find new evidence to make case for the Bible. So far you did not reach an agreement, making my opinion easier to form. While not willing to believe, my position remains, you are both unconvincing. Old evidence is missing, the new one is not good enough. Religious faith remains faith for around two thousand years and counting…
Zoran
Fred,
What special thing would you like God to do for you right now?
Perry
For me? I don’t want god to do anything for me. i’d like him to do a lot of things for others however. But I realize we all must take responsibility for the world we live in.
But if god is listening, the first thing he should do is snap his fingers and return all the kidnapped / abducted children in the world to their parents or caregivers. That would be a good start.
Totally!
To Perry and Wmoody1471 and many others…
If you believe in God and you think you are so close to God (so God should listen to you) – can you please ask God to return all the kidnapped children to their parents or caregivers?
samd : I am sure that you did not mean to be so profoundly hurtful in your last post – but you were.
To say, rather churlishly, ” can you please ask God to return all the kidnapped children to their parents or caregivers?” is like accusing US of never praying to God to ease the pain of those who suffer.
And I hope that you’re NOT going to crow, and snipe back by asking, mockingly, “So why doesn’t he answer your prayers? Gotcha.”
If you seriously want to raise the question of theodicy, it is a worthwhile and important issue that should be discussed. But to treat God as some capricious, gift and punishment bestowing Superman is to completely and utterly miss the point.
(I will admit that I think that certain brands of Evangelical Christianity in the USA are responsible for this immature and narrow concept of God. So I don’t entirely blame you, samd. I am heartily reassured to know that you don’t believe in this kind of God.)
Thanks Richard,
I did not intend to hurt. What I intended is for some of the folks to step back and retrospect. We were talking about miracles. Well although I like to see miracles (as there are so much pain and suffering) – I believe that miracles should be not be the feature by which we judge God. To be clear: I believe in God and I know to Him/Her we are all equal and we are all His/Her dearest children. What I do not like is division.
There are billions of people on earth and there were, are, and will be billions of ways to reach God. I don’t want this “yours is worse, mine is better path/religion” kind of dialogue.
There should not be any conversion. Let a Christian be Christian and a Buddhist be Buddhist. Depending on their individual interest, zeal, tenacity, dedication, love and hard work, let them realize God in their OWN way – do NOT interefere. Interefering and saying that “I know the Truth and I would like share” – and therefore pulling them towards your own religion/path/method is to basically DISRESPECT the other ways of reaching God.
I do believe in God but I do not believe in the fights among religions. I respect each religion, although I do not understand many of them – which is fine… I have my own relationship with God and I want to make it better – in my own way.
Also we should not scoff at scientists, or evolutionists etc. They are people of wisdom and God loves them as much as us. With their limited knowledge they are trying to understand the universe – they are not hurtng or killing any body – they are good people and they should applauded. On the contrary we see in the name of religion those scientists were hurt and killed – just because their understanding does not match with the religious understanding!! How bad was that and is that? I said “is” because although we do not burn scientists any more, we still scoff at them as if they are so wrong. Who are we to judge? Who gave us that right?
To me the best option is “live and let live, pray and let pray, love and let love”.
Some people on this forum (including me) are suggesting that we should use miracles as a way to judge God. That is my religious belief.
You are saying that we shouldn’t. That is your religious belief.
You are saying that people should not try to persuade others of their religious beliefs. That there should be no conversion.
Why is it OK for you to try to advocate your religious beliefs (which you are obviously doing here) when it is not OK for me to advocate mine?
Live and let live – that does not come from any religious belief. What I told here is not coming from any religious belief – it comes from rationality. Your agenda is different here and which hurts other beliefs… your belief disrespects the other paths to God by saying that “only thorugh Jesus one can attain heaven” – by saying and believing that you are disrespecting many other Sons of God who descended upon earth to save mankind in different times. If any of those followers (who are non-Christian) say the same thing – that their path is the ONLY way – then I would tell the same thing to them as I told you here.
You are fully entitled to believe in anything and follow it YOURSELVES… and the same should be applied to everybody else.
Now why suddenly everybody stopped responding to this? Because, you, proponents of spreading Christianity know very well that this what you do and you have no argument.
Some people would be persuaded by one blind person seeing. I offered a peer reviewed medical journal that documented 24 people being prayed for, the majority being healed of blindness or deafness. Not to mention the other examples in the article.
You scoffed and demanded that God return all kidnapped abducted children in the world to their parents or caregivers.
Shall we call this Miracle Inflation?
Fred, a considerable effort has been made by several people to dialogue with you. I have furnished as much proof as anyone can reasonably ask for. You are responsible for everything you have seen and heard here. You are wasting my time and from this point forward I will no longer take you seriously and will not respond to anything else you post.
I will continue to insist that you use more manners with others than you have so far. Otherwise your posts will be deleted.
Perry – Firt of all, you asked me what I want god to do for me, ok? I answered. Then you chastise my response.
You said:
“Some people would be persuaded by one blind person seeing.”
These people would then either be believers already or very uncritical thinkers unless that blind person had no eyeballs. That would indeed be a miracle.
“I offered a peer reviewed medical journal that documented 24 people being prayed for, the majority being healed of blindness or deafness.”
That’s not what happened at all Perry. You are misrepresenting the studies finding. From the paper:
“Methods: This prospective study used an audiometer (Earscan® 3) and vision charts (40 cm, 6 m “Illiterate E”) to evaluate 24 consecutive Mozambican subjects (19 males/5 females) reporting impaired hearing (14) and/or vision (11) who subsequently received PIP interventions.Conclusions: Rural Mozambican subjects exhibited improved audition and/or visual acuity subsequent to PIP. The magnitude of measured effects exceeds that reported in previous suggestion and hypnosis studies. Future study seems warranted to assess whether PIP may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with auditory and/or visual impairments, especially in contexts where access to conventional treatment is limited.”
The operative word here is impaired. They were not blind or deaf. They were hearing and vision impaired.
That is why I said that it is all about the subjects perception of their condition. Did these people believe in god and prayer going into the study? If so, you have a powerful confounding variable.
The study had very few subjects – only 24!Very hard to make a definitive conclusion with so few subjects. Even the researchers said “Future study seems warranted to assess whether PIP may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with auditory and/or visual impairments,…”
Perry you said:
“Not to mention the other examples in the article.”
The article in the Observer is not a scientific document Perry. It’s an article from a newspaper reporting on a story.
“You scoffed and demanded that God return all kidnapped abducted children in the world to their parents or caregivers.
Shall we call this Miracle Inflation?”
I “scoffed and demanded?” I don’t think so Perry. You took it that way. I merely said (after being asked by you) that if god is listening and hypothetically asked me what I wanted, I would ask him to free the abducted children of the world. YOU called it miracle inflation. I call it love. How is that scoffing and demanding?
“Fred, a considerable effort has been made by several people to dialogue with you.”
I too have put in considerable effort to dialogue with them and I have done so politely and calmly unlike MANY others who you have yet to threaten to ban. We are ALL putting effort in. Do I have to be “born again” to continue posting here? Do you only want to “preach to the choir?”
“I have furnished as much proof as anyone can reasonably ask for.”
I don’t agree that you have furnished any actual proof whatsoever for miracles. What you have offered wouldn’t stand up for a second in a court of law as proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
“You are responsible for everything you have seen and heard here.”
This makes no sense to me Perry. And I could take that as a very condescending remark you know.
“You are wasting my time and from this point forward I will no longer take you seriously and will not respond to anything else you post.”
That’s pretty telling. I spend my time here discussing these issues and all of a sudden because you are frustrated with being unable to answer with solid information, you are now “wasting your time.” Fantastic.
You know, this is how these conversations always seem to end up with people of faith. I thought this forum might be different – and it was for a spell. But I can see now that it isn’t. I ask important questions and am met with vitriol.
“I will continue to insist that you use more manners with others than you have so far. Otherwise your posts will be deleted.”
I have not once been rude or ill-mannered. I’ve asked you for specific examples of where I have purposefully rude or ill-mannered and you have not presented me with one example.
The truth is I’ve been perfectly respectful of everyone’s posts here. Never have I attacked anyone like some others have attacked me. There are many more people on this forum who deserve to have their posts deleted than I do and you Perry, for whatever reason, have not threatened them. But you find no problem in threatening me – the atheist. Why I wonder?
So I’ll ask again, have there been ANY medically documented miracles that you know of other than the one example you mentioned? The definition of a miracle being something that could not possible occur without a supernatural being? I have searched – scoured actually – the internet and cannot find one example.
Every year, literally millions of people go to Lourdes, here in France, in the hope of a miracle cure.
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html
Quoting from this site’s home page:
“Over 5,000 cures have been documented at the waters of Lourdes. The Church has vigorously investigated and validated a mere 67 of them.”
A medical committe of real doctors studies each miracle cure claim in considerable depth before autheenticating it.
Sure,67 out of millions of hopefuls isn’t a lot – but one single miracle cure is a still miracle.
Sixty seven. And you scoured the web without finding them.
Hm.
Forgive me for not holding my breath while waiting for you to mock and scorn and reject even more evidence.
Well, although I did not ask for any proof of any medical miracles, but I can say that… this is great!
At least a few (67 is pretty negligible number compared to the number cured by modern medical science in the human history) people got cured and these could not explained otherwise by some appointed medical doctors – which is great!
Good luck with this one Fred! Though banging your head against a brick wall may be less painful/more rewarding. If these people can believe the god story, then they can probably fall for anything. No critical thinking required. I was about 10 when I though, ‘hang on, this can’t be right’, then promptly saw through the whole jesus/god myth.
Regards
JP
Perry, I think Fred is perfectly reasonable in his comments and questions. If this is a discussion forum and we all agree on everything, where is the discussion? I find it rather enlightening and profoundly interesting to read the comments offered by members of the forum. Let’s not forget that the subject is and can be highly emotional and let’s also remember that emotion has no intellect. For the most part I find your (Perry) comments to be sincere and passionate and also consistent. What I don’t understand is when you threaten
to terminate a contributor. I think most of us can recognize remarks that are uncalled for and consider their source, even at times, my own remarks are uncalled for but that’s what comes from the give and take on this forum. May I suggest, if you do remove a contributor it be for reasons other than disagreement.
If you called 67 cured a miracle, I am wondering how to call millions and millions cured by mainstream medicine. Yes, I am talking of all kind of diseases. You are looking for and counting specific cases where mainstream medicine failed. Ok. If you want to be honest make the same research on the other side, count diseases where praying alone fails and compare the two.
Fred, asked you nicely to show him evidence for “an amputated limb grow back in 5 minutes time”. Although our surgeons are not that good, they demonstrated ability to perform something no prayer has done ever before and is highly unlikely to do in foreseeable future, and is called transplantation. Here is a simple thought experiment. Travel two thousand years in the past and perform transplantation and show the results to the people. Everyone would tell it is a miracle because they has never seen anything like that and do not understand how it is done. But as I said “everything is a miracle before it becomes a science” meaning, today you have knowledge about procedure of transplantation and it is no longer a miracle. What is very disappointing is the lack of respect (comparing 67 with millions) to those who did it.
Zoran
So let me see if I understand your logic:
“Method A is performed by surgeons and documented in excruciating detail. It is effective 50% of the time. Method B is performed by prayer and not surgeons or any form of physical intervention. It is not usually documented in excruciating detail, but 2% of the time it has been and it has been demonstrated and documented by medical doctors (complete with x-rays, medical histories etc) to be effective. But since 2% is less than 50%, I dismiss it as quackery.”
Is that correct?
So let’s all of us pray really hard and get that 2% figure up and, hey presto, we can cut the annual expenditure on medicine to a fraction of what it is today. Simples. And very testable.
Perry, who would you rather go to if you were suffering from cancer? An oncologist or your local church congregation?
Why is it an either/or question?
I think it is an either / or question because that will determine whether you really believe in something what you are trying to prove/show/cite example of. If you really believe in it from your HEART that it works – then why not just go to local church? If you have even a spec of doubt in it – then you cannot preach or talk about it – because if you have doubt then it clearly shows you actually do not believe in it.
As a follower of Jesus I can pray for healing, and I can go to a doctor.
A person who does not follow Jesus can only go to the doctor.
As I/we would like to know, where your preference lies. What do you think is the best course of action to maintain health and to preserve life? I know what I would choose.
No Perry, if you go to both, then you do not fully trust God and His healing power.
On the contrary you are now trusting that atheist doctor (a very good % of doctors are atheists) whose work is based on science and many of whom believe in Darwin.
Perry, we know you are good person and we would like you/your family to heal/get better/survive – so it is fine if you go to a doctor – nothing wrong in that.
My only point is then… when it shows you do not fully trust in something… you should not be preaching about it.
Take one stand – whether it is right or wrong, left or right, and how inconvenient it is for you and have full trust in it and fight for it. Believe it with your heart.
What you are saying or doing here is like creating your own rules and taking a stance which suits you and a stance to support your other agendas. Then you lose the ground and your voice loses that power.
Sounds to me like Perry is hedging his bets. He can pray then go to a Doctor and when his ailment is cured he can claim that prayer did it, Pretty sneaky.
Hi there
You might be interested to see this page – http://healingrooms.com/index.php?src=content&cid=4
In part it says that John G Lake – •had such an incredible healing ministry, that according to statistics, the U.S. Government declared his city, Spokane, Washington, to be the healthiest city in America.
It’s not about choosing between science and faith. God gave us a brain to use. But He never intended for our brain to replace Him.
God is good and His ways are not our ways. I continue to pray that Fred will be touched by Him.
We have healing rooms at our church. Recently a man who attended the rooms regularly with pancreatic cancer was told he had mere months to live returned for a scan and the tumors had almost disappeared. The doctors are claiming it as a medical miracle.
JPeasemould – because i can have both i will have both.
There is power in faith.
The link to the article on Lake has not a shred of evidence in it that he did in fact perform miracles.
Tumors do disappear. It happens. And it happens to non-religious people too. Skin rashes can vanish – like acne. There is not TRUE miracle here unless a tennis ball size tumor vanishes overnight or while doctors are looking at it.
A miracle would be someone with a bullet wound through his heart completely vanishing before the surgeon’s very eyes as she was about to perform the necessary surgery. This NEVER happens.
There is indeed power to positive thinking and that by thinking positive you can indeed generate a stronger immune system and hormonal profile.
Despair and angst can kill you flat, but this is not the devil’s doing any more than positive thinking and laughter is a god healing you.
There are Yogi’s who can stop their own hearts and lower their blood pressure at will. This is the power of the human mind to control the body. We all have this ability to some degree if we develop it.
Laughter and feelings of joy are potent immune system boosters. But neither, no matter how great, can grow a lost limb back. And that is why god doesn’t give people who have lost their limbs, the limb back. He’s not involved in ANY of it.
Hi Fred
The link to the article makes the claim about Spokane being the healthiest city in your nation around the time of Lake’s ministry. The main reason for forwarding this was in response tot he claim about statistical probabilities about divine vrs natural (medical) methods of healing. The claims should be relatively easy to check. Lake claims over 100,000 healings during his time at Spokane.
You can keep asking questions and that’s fine. But one aspect to consider is the total nature of God. He made us in His image with free will. He is holy. He can’t look upon any sin. Sounds like you know a lot about the Old Testament. Remember Isiaih who said “our righteousness is like filthy rags”. In Romans Paul talks about that we have ALL (my emphasis) have fallen short of the glory of God. Doesn’t matter how much we think we are good, compared to our Creator’s holiness we come up short. This includes Christians and everyone else. Because we have free will and that is sacred to Him, He will not stop people doing evil things. Everyone has at some time transgressed His standard. Remember, He gave us the earth to look after. You have to agree we have done a very poor job. 50% of the world’s population lives in poverty.
But He is also loving and wants to look upon us, to have a realtionship. How does He solve the greatest moral dlime of all eternity? He loves us so much He sends His only Son to die for us – He takes our rightful punishment so that we can be seen as holy in His eyes. We can only understand that by faith. Anything else would violate our sacred free will. But He promises that when we accept this by faith, we are saved. Again you have a choice.
Isiaih writes 700 years before Christ was born, about the Messiah, and later Isiaih writes about by what means Christ would die – I’m sure you know this. He says amongst other things that “He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities…, He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, yet He opened not His mouth….”.
You say you are not a therapist. In my job as a Psychologist, which mostly involves developing a therapeutic relationshiop with people, I am able to obtain some amazing insights into human functioning, from an individuals point of view. Prior to meeting Jesus, i was totally of the view that anything unexplained could reasonably fit into mind/body connections. But when i discovered the “spirit” there was the realisation that there is a whole other realm. About 1 in 10 people now describe things to me that can only be described as supernatural. It’s either that or dellusional – but if the person is dellusional you expect pervasive impacts on the person’s life (dellusional mostly means psychotic). But in the main these are people who live normal lives, fucntion reasonably well. An example – one was a high profile lawyer in my town who had two experiences, one where he was physically tormented by something “out of this world”, when his door was locked and there was no way anyone could have gotten into his room. He had another experience when he was in a war zone and he was hit from behind, causing him to fall. when this happened a bullet that was fired at him missed. He is convinced that “something” protected him. And you may recall the example of my atheist colleague who was tormented by demons for 14 months.
People tell me things because i now ask them. Some have quite horrific stories of ouija board encounters. Books have been written about ritualistic satanic abuse.
The spirit is real whether you believe it or not. And if it is what’s it all about? You may recall from your early days that “God puts eternity on mans heart”. Just about every culture has some method to try and explain their existence (and supernatural happenings) and their rituals etc attempt to contact God. But Judaism and Christianity is God’s attempt to contact man. Fred, please, just say a little prayer, “if you are there show me” and i believe He will honor that.
God bless you
No Perry it is not, statistical data analysis is not that simple and you know it. Our disagreement is about quality(truthfulness) of input data and their quantity, not statistical model used, which by the way can only be as good as input data are. Beside input data quality, my objection was about disproportionate quantity of data samples used for mainstream medicine and alternative medicine. It is general rule in statistics that larger number of data samples leads to a more accurate statistical description, which is obviously not the case for so called miracles we are dealing with in our discussion. For those who are willing to go into some detail please read this article (see probability sampling) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_sampling
It explains why, in general, “documented miracles” fails to gain serious attention of a scientist.
If anyone find it interesting we can discuss it further.
Zoran
I know quite a bit about statistical significance, I’ve studied probability. I’m an electrical engineer. I’ve been teaching this concept to my Google AdWords customers for 7 years. I created a website http://www.splittester.com which allows advertisers to gauge the statistical significance of their tests.
In Southern Medical Journal we have medical documentation of 24 blind and deaf people, and 75% of the subjects experienced substantial improvement in vision – no improvement to 15X – or hearing (10 to 60 decibels). The paper considers the statistical significance of the measured results; I quote:
* This study found a significant effect of PIP on auditory function across the tested population (P < 0.003). * This study found a significant effect of PIP on visual function across the tested population (P < 0.02). What formal objections are you making about the statistical validity of these measurements? The URL is http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/09000/Study_of_the_Therapeutic_Effects_of_Proximal.5.aspx
Please respond in detail including calculations of statistical significance and indicate the probability that this happened by chance or was just placebo effect.
Come on Perry, It can’t be that hard to answer. The question is, you’re in need of some urgent medical intervention, so where do you go, your doctor or the local bible study group?
What percentage population of the USA are christian? 80%? Shouldn’t your 2% be a little higher? Are there some people out there not praying hard enough?
How do you account for the low 2% figure?
I pulled the 2% number out of the air. It’s deliberately pessimistic to make my point. My experience is that it’s much higher than that. Maybe it’s 10% or 20%.
I know it’s 0% when you eliminate the option from the outset.
How many Christians do you know who actually do exactly what Jesus taught, which is ask the leaders in their church to lay hands on and heal? How many churches advocate and exercise gifts of healing like is taught in the book of Acts?
You do not have to be a Christian to be healed – just read the New Testament.
When I need urgent medical intervention I do both. Did Jesus ever say anything that even hints that there is anything wrong with doctors or going to them? I haven’t.
Where did Jesus ever say that everything would be healed all the time? Do you know that even Jesus was unable to do more than minor healings in his own hometown, because of their unbelief?
Did you read the accounts on my /miracles/ page? Did you watch the videos? Did you read the medical reports? Did you check out the links? Did you read any of the books?
Why would you not want miracles to be real?
I fail to understand how anybody who has seen a bit of the world and been exposed to different societies and cultures can doubt that unexplained, miracle cures happen.
The Christian Church does not have exclusive rights on miracle cures. I am personally familiar with six cases,and only one of them was in a Christian context.
The first one was in the Mormon Church in 1972. A brain tumour disappeared. I have seen the before and after X-rays, and the person is still alive and well.
As Perry remarks, if you want to remain within the Christian context for this kind of discussion, you will need to take into account the entirety of Christian (Bibical) teachings.
Fred – a little exercise for you. What is wrong with this quote from Galatians:
“the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Amputated legs are restored and credit card debts disappear”?
Hatred being transformed into love is a miracle. Grief giving place to joy is a miracle. Torment being transformed into peace is a miracle.
Fred – your conversion would be a miracle. Mine was.
Oh – and when was the last time you personally invested your time, money, energy and love into having just one amputee’s leg grow back? Or improving the living conditions of an amputee?
When was the last time you spent hours and weeks and months sitting with an amputee, helping him overcome his/her despair and restoring hope?
You don’t need to answer. Your reply to this post is predictable. But I will not condemn you – I, too, wrote posts like yours, except that mine were worse because they were intelligent.
Perry, I agree to expand discussion about statistical significance of documented miracles, but I disagree to reject the rest of the forum in the process. Proposed calculations would do just that, however, luckily, mainstream medicine did the “hard” work for us and results are well known, although ignored by some.
Here are my formal objections regarding published paper as you requested. For now I shall use only citations of objections made by the authors of the paper. I shall leave my personal opinion aside for now. You are all invited to comment them as you feel appropriate.
So, what follows are CITATIONS only:
—————————————————-
Measurement Methods
Measurements could not be conducted in an acoustically isolated room due to the
remote field location, and the high ambient noise (AN) from
the nearby crowd of people presented a considerable challenge
to measurement accuracy…………
AN was very high during testing (50–100 dB SPL),…………
The maximum intensity that could be generated by the audiometer
was 100 dB ……………..
Due to time constraints, hearing thresholds were measured
for all subjects only at 3 kHz in each ear separately
instead of across the whole frequency spectrum………….
—————————————————–
That is how it looks when you do not have time and tools to do the job properly.
Zoran
The hearing tests were conducted in less than ideal conditions. However if this was a fatal flaw then the reviewers would likely not have allowed the paper to have been published.
And what about the documented, statistically significant improvements in vision?
What about the video that shows Heidi Baker healing a deaf woman in front of her entire village?
What about the video that shows Delia Knox healed of paralysis after 20+ years – as confirmed in numerous media outlets? Is it merely a coincidence that she was at a healing service when this happened? What about Brian Burgee healed after 34 years of deafness, as reported in the Charlotte Observer?
What about Dr. Richard Casdorph’s book Real Miracles where he shows the medical documentation, Xrays etc?
What about the scrupulously documented medical cases at Lourdes?
Please continue with your analysis of statistical significance.
“I know quite a bit about statistical significance”
Well Perry, I was counting on that, but that knowledge is useless if you are not honest with data you are processing. That is the main reason why miracles are not recognized in mainstream scientific community. It is a good thing if you search for the evidence to prove them wrong, but it is wrong if you consider invalid evidence as valid. In that case your proposal is rejected as it is for now. Do not get me wrong, my fight against unconvincing evidence does not mean I am not searching for one too, it means only that deception of any kind is not an acceptable option for me.
Zoran
Here, here. “Science as a candle in the dark.” – Sagan
Perry: “The hearing tests were conducted in less than ideal conditions. However if this was a fatal flaw then the reviewers would likely not have allowed the paper to have been published.”
Ok maybe it is less than fatal flaw but let us not begin debate about half full – half empty thing however, wouldn’t you recommend to repeat tests in better conditions, or maybe best conditions possible if you want to get “statistically significant” results. Isn’t that procedure that scientists are practicing all the time, to repeat tests-experiments before declaring them a success?
Just for our reference, they said that audio measurements were performed during 50-100dB ambient noise and 100dB is what jack hammer produces at 1 meter distance. It must be a joke, right ???
You asked Perry for vision improvement assessment:
Here are further citations from the paper :
——————————
All but one vision subject was tested in broad daylight; the remaining subject was tested after dark, with electricity provided by generator-powered stage lights and a flashlight ….
There are several limitations of the study. First, field conditions were challenging. There were no modern clinical facilities available, and we were unable to diagnose the etiology of auditory or visual impairments or to assess whether structural changes occurred. There is no way of knowing whether hearing changed at untested frequencies, or whether subjects tested only with 40 cm or 6 m charts would have exhibited change with the other chart. Second, although the study was prospective and controlled for some potential confounds such as AN, there was no control group, only a null hypothesis of no significant effect. Third, the study was not double-blinded. In support of experimenter reliability, several audition subjects showed no measurable improvement, despite self-reported improvement….
—————————–
Just think about how intense broad daylight test conditions can be and what impact does it have on the “depth of field” of our vision!!
To be honest I thought, at first, that must be a yoke and yet it have been published in “reputable”?? journal.
Please Perry, admit, at least for the sake of the people in this forum, that this evidence is not a good one. Let us not waste time with it, let us search for better one, maybe really there is good one out there (in here)?
Zoran
Good response!
To Richard:
Richard: The Christian Church does not have exclusive rights on miracle cures.
Samd: So you are agreeing to the fact that there are other churchs/temples/synagogues etc. where miracles happen. If they happen then the others (non-Christians) also can pray and talk to God in their way. So then why don’t you agree that there are multiple ways to reach God?
Richard: Hatred being transformed into love is a miracle. Grief giving place to joy is a miracle. Torment being transformed into peace is a miracle. Fred – your conversion would be a miracle. Mine was.
Samd: I agree with you completely that hatred being transformed into love is a miracle. No doubt about it. But then why our conversion would be a miracle? Why not think about a miracle where you guys will not have any ill-feeling or disrespect or lack of faith in other religions and so no-more-conversion? Why poor people from third world countries would have to change their names and religion just to get a little bit of help from you?
Yes, I know that some of you guys travel far to go to third world countries as missionaries. You give some money or some help to the poorest, neediest, and the most vulnerable people of the world and in return you snatch their identities, their name, their religions they are born with. It sounds bad but that is the truth. What if we come to you and remodel your house and tell you that from tomorrow your name is John and you cannot speak French (assuming you are born French) – how would you feel.
Religion is the language to speak to God. Those poor souls are born with a religion and then you come and tell them – oh btw: now you have to come to our Church and pray to Jesus and you cannot continue your own ways any more. Then there will be “Michael this”, “John that” in front of their names. Why so?
When will we see miracles like you guys are helping poor and needy people without any agenda – a complete selfless act of help?
That would be a miracle!!
samd : What an astonishingly presumptuous response!!! Frankly it is the kind of attitude that gives Americans a bad reputation with the rest of the world. You speak as if the only Christians on the whole planet were raving, bible-bashing fundamentalists. Guess what – I’m not one of them.
samd – So then why don’t you agree that there are multiple ways to reach God?
Me – When have you heard/read me expressing my thoughts on that subject?
samd : Why not think about a miracle where you guys will not have any ill-feeling or disrespect or lack of faith in other religions and so no-more-conversion?
Me – When have you EVER heard me express ill-feeling or disrespect for other faiths?
samd : …you snatch their identities, their name, their religions they are born with
Me : What / who are you talking about? I am a 65 year-old Welshman who has been living in France since 1984.
samd : When will we see miracles like you guys are helping poor and needy people without any agenda
Me : That is a really ugly accusation. The biggest charity in France is the “Secours Catholique”. They help people when their rights to state aid have run out. They help everybody – poor Catholics, poor Muslims, poor Hindus, poor Buddhists, poor atheists, poor traders WITH ABSOLUTELY NO AGENDA!
Please, samd, get your facts straight, and learn a little about the rest of the world before you write posts like that.
GRRRRR
Richard… all these are not directly meant to “you” but many othere Christian missionaries. The context here was about “miracle”. I have my facts straight and whatever I wrote in the earlier posts happen every day in the third world countries – so please wake up and accept the fact (though you are not personally involved in it). Looks like this would be a “miracle” for you to accept this everyday fact of poor lives in rural villages in many south asian countries.
Good response, Zoran!
“The Church has vigorously investigated and validated a mere 67 of them.”
The church has? Of course they have.
I’ve heard of this before but I cannot find the specific physician’s reports – can you? They seem to be strangely unobtainable.
And most of these so-called miracles have modern day explanations.
Like I said, give sight to one with no eyes. A limb back to one who has lost it.
I know people myself who’s cancer got better, who’s MS got better. Often this can happen from a dietary change.
FE: Very low carbohydrate diets can slow and reverse many cancers as well as heal MS, arthritis and many auto-immune disorders.
Where are the doctor’s reports?
“As a follower of Jesus I can pray for healing, and I can go to a doctor. A person who does not follow Jesus can only go to the doctor.”
By going to the doctor and praying, does this not show god that you don’t fully trust in him?
And must you follow Jesus for him to help you? What about all the atheists who supposedly did get gods help and then converted?
Exactly my point: it shows that you do not fully trust God.
And if you do not believe or fully trust something, then you lose the authority to teach or preach about it.
It is a universal truth and true for any aspects of life – not just religion. If you do not believe in something completely – you cannot preach about it.
samd- You’ve given many good & candid replies that reveal where & what the misunderstandings are that keep You “Talking Past” Others–Also–of Good Will. I’m not going to try to touch upon each & every point of difference…but This One caught My eye the other day when You first posted it–but then…as it turned out…JPeasemould’s were comments that I chose to bite on–first.
Anywho–
You and FredHahn are in agreement on what amounts to a…
False Dichotomy…
a.k.a….Either-Or Fallacy…
a.k.a….Black & White Thinking…
etc.
Fred’s line of reasoning attempts to straitjacket “Christians” to “Prayer Only Zones” if/when They become sick or injured…
Fred stated…”By going to the doctor and praying, does this not show god that you don’t fully trust in him?”…
And You chimed in…”Exactly my point: it shows that you do not fully trust God. And if you do not believe or fully trust something, then you lose the authority to teach or preach about it.”
There is MUCH in “Eastern-Influenced Spirituality” that encourages us all to simply accept “All Things As They Are”…IN FACT…becoming completely detached from the external world & “All Things As They Are” is viewed in many Eastern-Influenced Religions as The Goal & The Path To Attaining The Highest Spiritual Awareness & State of Being.
THIS “Religiously Based Philosophy” Was NOT The Source of The Schools That Developed Today’s Incredible Array of Medical Treatments & Systems of Hospitals & Clinics…
Tho’ Eastern Cultures DO HAVE MUCH In The Way of Less Invasive Medical Practices That Western Medicine Has FINALLY Come To Study & Respect & In MANY Cases–INCORPORATE…
YET HERE–
In THESE Posts…
You & Fred attempt to argue that The People IN & OF The Faith Communities That LARGELY Built & Staffed & Endlessly Develop&Advance Our Healthcare Systems–CAN’T GO TO THEM IN TIME of NEED BECAUSE THAT SHOWS THEY DON’T “TRUST” GOD.
Christians DO TRUST IN GOD–
And Each Other…
To Do Our Level Best In All Circumstances…
Knowing That–
We’re All HuMan–
With HuMan Limitations…
Which IS WHY We Need To Work IN TEAMS–
Well-Organized & Well-Balanced
Well-Trained & Well-Maintained…
Cooperating & Collaborating
(& celebratin’)
TEAMS…
And Leagues of TEAMS…
And Leagues of Support Systems For Those TEAMS…
And Leagues of Rising Talent For Future TEAMS…
Etc…Etc…Etc…
It’s a NEVER-ENDING & EVER-CHANGING! Cast (NOT Caste) of BILLIONS (& MANY MORE 2 COME)…
NeXT Batter UP !!…
Oh Yeah…THAT TEAM’S ALREADY “History”…
Thanks–Steve–For All The Jobs…Just The Same.
“It is a universal truth and true for any aspects of life – not just religion. If you do not believe in something completely – you cannot preach about it.”
You don’t have to believe to preach, that’s one of the problems
too many people preach but don’t believe. They are called scam artists.
“I fail to understand how anybody who has seen a bit of the world and been exposed to different societies and cultures can doubt that unexplained, miracle cures happen.”
I fail to understand how any sensible person can believe that miracle cures actually happen. The unexplained happens all the time. But that’s all it is, unexplained. Medicine is not an exact science but in time it will be able to explain more about what happened to out bodies.
Whether or not I want miracle cures to happen is utterly irrelevant. The should or should not happen regardless of what I think. If it’s prayer that evokes a miracle cure, then our problems are solved, aren’t they? If, as it appears, they are random, infrequent and unexplained then are they not just an unexplained phenomenon with natural causes? Why invoke the supernatural?
I hope you are aware of the Templeton study on the power of prayer on healing and that it showed no benefit at all.
Could someone please give our loving god a nudge and ask him to get on with sorting out the disease and poverty in the world. Assuming he’s not too busy. And that he loves us.
I won’t hold my breath though. But I am looking forward to the predictable reasons/excuses as to why he won’t be intervening anytime soon.
Thank You–JPeasemould–THIS reply of Yours illustrates quite clearly THE DIFFERENCE between a “Worldly POV” (Yours) & a “Christ-like POV” (say…Mother Teresa) by Your statements…
“Could someone please give our loving god a nudge and ask him to get on with sorting out the disease and poverty in the world. Assuming he’s not too busy. And that he loves us.
I won’t hold my breath though. But I am looking forward to the predictable reasons/excuses as to why he won’t be intervening anytime soon.”
Christ/GOD came as a humble & hard worker…a carpenter’s “son”…NOT an Aristocrat.
You–JP–speak as an aristocrat. You look at the world–see disease and poverty…and expect GOD to instantly solve these HuMan problems–miraculously…And Since You Don’t See THIS Happening–You Decide That GOD & Miracles Do NOT Exist.
The Christ-like People of this world…
> NOT to be confused with ALL Who Call Themselves– “Christian”…
> AND ALSO Found Throughout All The World & All of History…among all humble & hardworking people of good will…
See disease and poverty…and by whatever means they are able to…join together to work to relieve the suffering and prevent avoidable problems…praying for the…
Strength
Wisdom
Understanding
Courage
Knowledge
Right Judgment
Faithfulness
Gracefilled Insights &
Good Humor of GOD–
To Bless & Inform & Form The Work That They Do.
And–
Some People become Specialists in certain aspects of The Greater Work…
While Other People have Careers that include many different tasks & a wide variety of assignments that give them the broad experiences necessary to be Well Cross-Trained General Managers.
Thank YOU mcblanc for THIS reply.
See, the trouble is, you have the arrogance to think there is actually a god of this vast, vast, vast universe of billions upon billions of galaxies and that, for some reason, he would send his ‘son’ here disguised as the son of a ‘humble hard working’ (quite what that has to do with it I don’t know) jewish carpenter.
No, I don’t expect to see miracles or expect god to solve huMan problems. Ever. But for some reason you do expect some sort of intervention, do you not? Can god intervene; All the time? Some of the time? None of the time? I would suggest your invisible friend is, in fact, imaginary.
And I put it to you that ‘miracle cures’ are nothing more than natural phenomena. Praying as an alternative to treatment, leads to deaths. As has tragically been the case recently.
Incidentally, mother Teresa is a poor example to quote. She was a fake saint. Had no interest in saving people, just their ‘souls’. Think of all the women’s lives she could have helped if she had only promoted contraception. She was happy to refuse the dying pain killers, as she thought suffering was good as it would bring them nearer to christ. Warped.
Peasemould—What a thick & juicy reply…complete with a touch of mimicry/mockery to boot !!
See—
Your trouble—JP—is that You have the arrogance to think that among the vast, vast billions upon billions of people in existence in our…
Past / Present / Future…
You Know—Those People Who SOMEONE Had The Faith & Courage To NOT Contracept But To Give Birth To…Even Tho’ That SOMEONE Might See That They Probably Could NOT Raise—But Would Have To Give Their Child(ren) Up To Others To Raise…
ANYWAY—
You have the arrogance to dismiss THE PRESENCE of GOD & HIS LIFE CHANGING & SUSTAINING HAND FELT IN HUMAN LIVES THROUGHOUT ALL of HISTORY as nothing more than an…“invisible friend [who] is, in fact, imaginary.” Your assertions amount to such small potatoes…for the very reason that MOST of Life—Especially What Makes Life Worth Living—IS Simply & Clearly NOT Logical:
Love—
NOT Logical & Certainly NOT Reasonable.
Ditto—
Children.
Hobbies—
Colossal Wastes of Time & Energy & Resources.
Friendships—
Often Morph Into Inconveniences & Liabilities 2nd Only To Those Normally Associated With Children.
Careers—
A “Big Lie” Devised To Give False Hope That There’s A Reason For Us To Keep Trying.
This should all sound “Familiar” to You as these are lead-off examples of the “lines of reasoning” Generally Spouted By Those Who Are Far Too Smart For “Religion—Pabulum For The Masses”…Sad how so many of these same people (who I knew) were preaching the gospel of “Vitamin P—for Prozac” by the 1990’s.
JP—You OBVIOUSLY Don’t “Get” IT—Do You ??
Big Bang = Jesus Christ
This doesn’t just mean that the correctness of the Big Bang Theory means that the Judeo-Christian “In the beginning…” Scriptures are trustworthy…
This is saying that…
The Universe = Christ
Who—approximately 2000 years ago was born as a male child to a Jewish Mother following years unto decades unto centuries unto a millennium of selection & instruction & training & trials & errors & trials again as being GOD’S Chosen People.
So…
Universe = Christ = Jesus
Which is WHY He can work Any Miracle—Any Time—That He Wants…
Only…
The point of His Coming The 1st Time Was To Teach US All How…
Working Together—
IN Love & WITH Respect—
For GOD & Each Other…
We Can Do—All But The Miraculous…
And 2000 (or so) years later—THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE…
Tho’…There’s STILL Plenty of Room For Improvements.
Btw…
That 2nd Coming…
That’s More Like A Cafeteria That Serves Unlimited 2nds…
Every Life Conceived—Each Life Born IS A 2nd Coming of Christ…
Whether or NOT We “Get” IT—
And When We DO ALL “Get” IT…
The 2nd Coming Will Be FULLY MANIFESTED.
Oh Yeah…And Another Thing…
Among Those Famous Miracles That Christ Worked Was…
The Miracle of the 5 Loaves and 2 Fish…
I’d Love—Some Day—to find out that The Real Miracle was getting Somebody to cough up the 5 loaves & 2 fish in the middle of that huge crowd in the first place…And once Somebody did & the blessing was given…Then Others who’d brought along food—but were afraid to show it…under the circumstances…were in a better position to produce what they had as the baskets were passed…and everyone was fed and there was plenty left over…
WHICH IS NOT UNLIKE TODAY—
There IS Enough of Everything IN America To Provide For Everybody’s Needs (NOT To Be Confused With Wants)…And As More & More People With Enough (& More Than Enough) See Others Providing For Their Own & Their Family’s Needs AND Sharing Some of Their Surplus With Others IN Need…Then—IN NO TIME—We Will Get Thru These Days of Economic Down-Turn-Around With EVERYBODY ON BOARD & Heading Forward—To Infinity & Beyond !!!
Warren Buffett’s & Bill Gates’ “Giving Pledge” is among the Higher Profile Examples of such Good Work Happenin’ RIGHT NOW.
I know—I know…
You’re NOT interested in such “fake saint” works…
You much prefer the Objectivist Saint—Ayn Rand—
And the All-American Atheist Saint—Madalyn Murray O’Hair…
To Each—Their Own… 8 D
“I fail to understand how anybody who has seen a bit of the world and been exposed to different societies and cultures can doubt that unexplained, miracle cures happen.” I must be missing something here, to my thinking it’s either an unexplained cure or it’s a miracle cure, how can it be both? Unless, of course, every unexplained cure is a miracle. In which case there sure are a lot of miracles or perhaps there are a lot of unexplained cures, very confusing.
Richard Morgan said:
“I fail to understand how anybody who has seen a bit of the world and been exposed to different societies and cultures can doubt that unexplained, miracle cures happen.”
You fail to understand? Because when we are talking about actual miracles, no one has any documented proof. If there was any, it would be splashed all over the media in a heartbeat.
“The Christian Church does not have exclusive rights on miracle cures. I am personally familiar with six cases,and only one of them was in a Christian context.
The first one was in the Mormon Church in 1972. A brain tumour disappeared. I have seen the before and after X-rays, and the person is still alive and well.”
Please explain this in detail vanished how? Do you mean the doctors were looking at the tumor under an MRI machine and it just vanished? Did they screw up the Xrays? Where is this evidence Richard?
“As Perry remarks, if you want to remain within the Christian context for this kind of discussion, you will need to take into account the entirety of Christian (Bibical) teachings.”
Seems fair.
“Fred – a little exercise for you. What is wrong with this quote from Galatians:
“the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Amputated legs are restored and credit card debts disappear”?
Funny. You mean: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
I got no beef with this. Of course, god did not exactly follow this advice throughout the old testament.
“Hatred being transformed into love is a miracle.”
Someone should have reminded god of that when he smote Sodom and Gomorrah and turned Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt.
“Grief giving place to joy is a miracle.”
No, it’s called emotional recovery.
“Torment being transformed into peace is a miracle.”
No, it’s called reconciliation and compromise. And think of all the torment god caused throughout the OT.
“Fred – your conversion would be a miracle. Mine was.”
That is probably true. And that is what it would take – a true miracle. Otherwise, it seems to me that if god intends to keep his reality a secret, i’ll just keep going ao bout my business being a good and kind person.
“Oh – and when was the last time you personally invested your time, money, energy and love into having just one amputee’s leg grow back?”
An amputees leg can’t grow back. But I pay my taxes and some of that goes to scientific research. I spend every day dedicated to making people healthier and stronger. It’s what I do for a living. I have even trained obese children for free in order to help them.
“Or improving the living conditions of an amputee?”
This I have not done. You?
“When was the last time you spent hours and weeks and months sitting with an amputee, helping him overcome his/her despair and restoring hope?”
Hope for what? I am not a therapist. And I don’t personally know any amputees. I don’t see Jesus or any angels doing this either.
“You don’t need to answer. Your reply to this post is predictable. But I will not condemn you – I, too, wrote posts like yours, except that mine were worse because they were intelligent.”
Oooo – so mean and snarky! Ouch. What happened to love, joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, etc.?
Fred : as I said – predictable.
So too was your snarky response predictable RE: my intelligence level. That’s being a good Christian! It’s a good thing for you god forgot to say “Thou shalt not insult, demean, or ridicule.”
Now this sounds interesting:
“I highly recommend Fred Hahn’s Slow Burn system of exercise. His method is a potent means for developing yourself both physically and SPIRITUALLY in a safe and time efficient manner.”
Seen here : http://www.nyc.seriousstrength.com/sessions-sig.php
Now I understand your hatred for Christianity and the style of your posts here – you’re scared of the competition.
I can understand that. All’s fair in love and war etc
Does this mean also that you’re on the spiritual slow burner? Makes sense to me. No more hard feelings, pal. All has become clear.
I don’t hate Christianity Richard. What I like is reality.
The quote you posted is from Anthony Robbins. What’s wrong with it?
Fred – that is a very encouraging post. I am delighted to learn that you accept spirituality as a reality. Maybe I misread you, but it was not apparent from your previous posts.
If I can use your Slow Burn system and develop myself physically AND spiritually, then I owe it to myself to look into it.
But just one thing first – what is this spirituality that Robbins refers to and you, finding nothing wrong with it, accept as reality?
I don’t accept spirits as a reality. Spirituality is another matter completely and doesn’t require the existence of supernatural beings.
FYI SAMD’s comments are being deleted because he is insulting others. We’ll be happy to approve comments that are respectful and relevant.
Fred – thank you for that clarification. Are you saying that you admit the material/spiritual dichotomy?
We could perhaps come closer to understanding each other if you tell us how you conceive of “spirituality”. It is, I agree, a word open to abuse and misuse, and I would like to know what YOU mean when you say, perhaps with inadvertent humor, “Spirituality is another ‘matter’ ” (Sorry – I couldn’t resist that.)
Spirituality – not spirits. Meaning, feelings of self esteem, confidence, well-being, etc. Not feelings of make believe supernatural beings.
It’s Robbin’s quote.
To quote Andre Comte Sponville, relatively prolific atheist writer from Europe, “What is the spirit? It is the power to think, insofar as it gives us access to truth, universality or laughter. It is likely that without the brain, this ability would be able to do nothing at all or would not even exist…The spirit is not a substance. Rather, it is a function, a capacity, an act—and this act, at least, is irrefutable, since nothing can be refuted without it,” (Little book of Atheist Spirituality, 135)
muichimotsu : André Comte Sponville (whose book I bought and read, in French, when it first came out: L’esprit de l’athéisme : Introduction à une spiritualité sans Dieu) is doing the same thing as Fred Hahn – re-inventing a new meaning for the word “spirituality”.
Like Sam Harris, he wants the benefits of “spirituality” (they are both advocates of meditation) but he desperately needs to keep God out of it all – like Harris.
The real translation of the original title in French (why do you say “from Europe”? because France is in Europe?) would be “The Spirit of Atheism”. As I have pointed out to Fred, it is possible to play with the word “esprit” because it means “spirit” AND “mind”. That’s why he has manipulated the word to suit his atheist agenda and call it “the power to think”. The play on words works fine in French. Not so in English.
Oh – and you call four books “relatively prolific”? Bizarre.
He’s done more than 4 books, even in Europe, which is where you’re originally from. Perhaps only 4 have been translated into English, but in his native language, he seems to have a decent amount if we take even Wikipedia even relatively on its word.
I don’t see where you get any idea of meditation that necessitates absolutely that you need God in that practice. Buddhism for instance has never really needed God and is probably one of the most common systems you’d associate with the term meditation. Not to mention Daoism and instances of secular meditation in psychology, from what I understand. We did something like mindfulness meditation derived from Buddhism in a psychology class years ago.
I’m aware of the original translation, which apparently was also the title of an essay he wrote which might have been a precursor to the book.
The fact that the word has been used colloquially in one sense does not negate the use in history to mean the psychic or mental, which is what he’s getting at.
Another way I’d phrase it might suit you better, existential. We all have experience of things, which is what he’s getting at. It’s what you presume from those experiences that distinguishes atheistic and theistic existentialism, similarly to atheistic and theistic spirituality and/or meditation.
You don’t have a monopoly on either, as much as you may think you do. History proves otherwise, even if it’s a minority, atheist spirituality has existed for a decent amount of time.
muichimotsu : André Comte Sponville is French.
I have read his books in the original French editions.
He has written four books on the topic of atheism.
I am not just “originally from Europe”.
I live in France which just happens to be in Europe.
Forgive me for suggesting that perhaps I know a little more about ACS than you do.
Though i’m sure you’re a lovely person in real life.
Really.
I realize you’re from France, my memory isn’t that bad. Just four books on the topic of atheism is not what I referred to. He has written a decent amount in philosophy, it appears, which is what I meant.
I never claimed to be an expert on Sponville, just an admirer of his thought, however odd it may seem to others
muichimotsu : I’m sorry, I forgot to add this:
You said: ” History proves otherwise, even if it’s a minority, atheist spirituality has existed for a decent amount of time.”
Me – I totally agree with you.
You said: ” It’s what you presume from those experiences that distinguishes atheistic and theistic existentialism, similarly to atheistic and theistic spirituality and/or meditation.”
Me – I almost agree with you. “Presume” however is not quite the right verb. Would you care to choose another one. Or are you (mis)using it to refer to a spontaneously projected, personal world-view-biased interpretation?
I wouldn’t say spontaneous, but at the very least a somewhat biased interpretation. I never denied that we have our biases in looking at things, but sometimes in spite of our biases we approach things without investing our self-serving attitudes and look for truth in spite of it conflicting with previously held beliefs.
And as far as I’ve experienced, I see no reason to invoke God for any miraculous events or experiences that have occurred or even to soothe my mind of deaths of loved ones. Human contact more than suffices
muichimotsu- And IF You ever read & understood what the original webpages of information here at Cosmicfingerprints convey…
THEN You would know that HuMans–whose contact You find more than sufficient to soothe Your mind over–even the pain of the death of loved ones–Are Sourced of & from GOD…
Each of US Has Our Own DNA–an encoded language that could NOT have EVER been randomly created But IS Sourced From UNIMAGINABLE INTELLIGENCE–That ARE GOD’S OWN INSTRUCTIONS For The Assembly & Operation of…Whoever We Are…
All Life–Including HuMan Life–IS of GOD…
Making is ludicrous to assert that You have no reason to invoke God for any miraculous events or experiences that have occurred…
When The Fact That–
You Are Alive…
& Have Living & Loving Friends…
And maybe Family…
Who Exist Here–
On This Amazing Planet…
Found In This Breathtaking Universe–
THESE ARE THE MIRACULOUS EVENTS THAT HAVE GIVEN RISE TO YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCES–AND CONTINUE TO DO SO…
And You Accept “Creation”…
but–in your mind–exclude its creator…
It’s High Time For France To GET OVER The Nightmare That Was–The French Revolution–Wake UP !!…And Rejoin The Partay of The Living !!!
It’s Robbins’ quote on YOUR site. It’s his endorsement of YOUR slow burning method – therefore you associate yourself totally with it. And use it as advertising.
But Fred – if you’re going to invent your own, private uses of common words then please be clear about your strategy. Could you not rather go for a personal neologism? That would be the noble thing to do.
For the time being most English speakers will stick with:
spir·i·tu·al
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; NOT tangible or material. (See Synonyms at immaterial.)
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
spir·i·tu·al·i·ty
1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.
2. The clergy.
3. Something, such as property or revenue, that belongs to the church or to a cleric. Often used in the plural.
However, if you want to sell your slow burning method in France, the French language would facilitate your linguistic jiggery-pokery. In French there is just one word for “mind” and “spirit” – “esprit.” This leads semantically to the word “spirituel” which has two meanings/uses in French: spiritual AND the quality translated into English as “witty” – that sort of mental agility in social discourse.
Fred – I do not look down upon you for your lack of culture and general ignorance. You accuse me of being (overly) didactic. (In doing so you misused the word “didacticism” but rather than embarrass you in public, I’ll let you google it for yourself.)
Yes, I do have a didactic manner at times. After all, I was a teacher for most of my professional life. And you still have so much to learn – particularly about the Bible. If you want to insult the tone of my responses to you, you would do better to use the taunt that was often leveled at me on RDNet – “pedantic”. If you accuse me of pedantry, I will plead “Guilty”.
Christ died for the pedantic (me) AND the ignorant (you). That doesn’t make either of us greater or lesser than the other.
I have long endeavored to be guided by these words from DESIDERATA:
“listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. ”
I’m listening, Fed.
I promise – I’m really listening. You know so many things that I don’t. For example, before I visited your site, I had no idea that “Being strong physically helps you to be strong financially. ” (sic). I need to look into that. I like the idea of slow-burning myself into physical, spiritual AND financial strength.
Oops – perhaps not. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ”
Oh dear. It’s back to the drawing board for me…
Didacticism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didacticism
“The term has its origin in the Ancient Greek word διδακτικός (didaktikos), “related to and or education/teaching.” Originally, signifying learning in a fascinating and intriguing manner.”
I was making a tongue and cheek joke as if to say you were teaching me in a fascinating and intriguing manner.
And I’ll say it yet again, it’s Tony’s quoted endorsement. I place people’s endorsements word for word on MY website.
Tony apparently feels my method of training helps the spirit. However, nowhere in any of MY materials do I suggest that my method is good for the spirit.
If someone said in an endorsement: “Slow Burn training has brought me closer to God.” I’d print it as is. I don’t have the right to alter people’s testimonials. What are you not understanding about this?
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
Well, that’s nice to know! I guess then those that completely lack spirit get to heaven first!
For some reason there was no reply button under this comment so I have to address it at the bottom of the page.
Graham said:
“Hi Fred
The link to the article makes the claim about Spokane being the healthiest city in your nation around the time of Lake’s ministry. The main reason for forwarding this was in response tot he claim about statistical probabilities about divine vrs natural (medical) methods of healing. The claims should be relatively easy to check. Lake claims over 100,000 healings during his time at Spokane.”
I’m not sure how to check this but I have severe doubts that this claim is valid. I mean, by who’s criteria?
“You can keep asking questions and that’s fine. But one aspect to consider is the total nature of God. He made us in His image with free will. He is holy. He can’t look upon any sin.”
I don’t understand that.
“Sounds like you know a lot about the Old Testament. Remember Isiaih who said “our righteousness is like filthy rags”. In Romans Paul talks about that we have ALL (my emphasis) have fallen short of the glory of God. Doesn’t matter how much we think we are good, compared to our Creator’s holiness we come up short.”
So what? He’s god – of course we come up short. How in the world are we supposed to EVER be as “holy” as he is? If you think about it, it’s a stupid thing for Paul to say. What’s his point?
“This includes Christians and everyone else. Because we have free will and that is sacred to Him, He will not stop people doing evil things.”
Then why is he mad when we do evil things? If he gave us free will to do as we wish, he needs to accept this – deal with it – and get over it.
“Everyone has at some time transgressed His standard. Remember, He gave us the earth to look after. You have to agree we have done a very poor job. 50% of the world’s population lives in poverty.”
The glass is either half full or half empty. But if you think about it, god then did a pretty poor job of it too. We’re in this together. He can”t sit up there in his big throne and not take full responsibility for all the evil there is and all the starvation there is on Earth. Love is a two way street brother. He is just as responsible for all the hate, violence and torture as we are.
“But He is also loving and wants to look upon us, to have a realtionship. How does He solve the greatest moral dlime of all eternity? He loves us so much He sends His only Son to die for us – He takes our rightful punishment so that we can be seen as holy in His eyes. We can only understand that by faith.”
Agreed. Because if one were to invoke logic and common sense, you realize that the story is absolutely ludicrous and if WE did that to our son, he’d have a heavenly canipshin.
“Anything else would violate our sacred free will. But He promises that when we accept this by faith, we are saved. Again you have a choice.”
C’mon now, this goes back to the lame idea that if we don’t fall on our knees and pray to the almighty we put ourselves in hell. That’s utterly ridiculous.
“Isiaih writes 700 years before Christ was born, about the Messiah, and later Isiaih writes about by what means Christ would die – I’m sure you know this.”
Yes I do. But realize that the story of Jesus is not at all unique. Dozens of similar stories exist – virgin birth and all. Predicting that the same sort of story would occur yet again is hardly a revelation.
“He says amongst other things that “He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities…, He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, yet He opened not His mouth….”.”
Like I said above, far too vague and similar to many other historical figures.
“You say you are not a therapist. In my job as a Psychologist, which mostly involves developing a therapeutic relationshiop with people, I am able to obtain some amazing insights into human functioning, from an individuals point of view. Prior to meeting Jesus, i was totally of the view that anything unexplained could reasonably fit into mind/body connections. But when i discovered the “spirit” there was the realisation that there is a whole other realm. About 1 in 10 people now describe things to me that can only be described as supernatural. It’s either that or dellusional –”
It’s delusional.
“but if the person is dellusional you expect pervasive impacts on the person’s life (dellusional mostly means psychotic).”
Why? Believing in Santa, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, elves, etc. doesn’t hurt children or create pervasive impacts on them. At least they don’t seem to.
“But in the main these are people who live normal lives, fucntion reasonably well. An example – one was a high profile lawyer in my town who had two experiences, one where he was physically tormented by something “out of this world”, when his door was locked and there was no way anyone could have gotten into his room.”
A dream? A nightmare? I’ve had similar things occur.
“He had another experience when he was in a war zone and he was hit from behind, causing him to fall. when this happened a bullet that was fired at him missed. He is convinced that “something” protected him.”
That doesn’t mean a supernatural being protected him. An cluster bomb might have gone off nearby and the thrust of this bomb might have shoved him forward and the bullet missing was luck.
“And you may recall the example of my atheist colleague who was tormented by demons for 14 months.”
So you are saying that demons are real and can materialize on this planet and torment people? If so, what you are suggesting is that when a child bursts into the room of his parents crying that demons are under the bed and trying to get him, since lying is against god’s will, you have to say to your child “Yes son, there are demons under your bed. Go back to bed and pray to god to make them go away. Now son, he may not make them go away and you have to think about what you did to make the demons come to you and ask god’s forgiveness.”
“People tell me things because i now ask them. Some have quite horrific stories of ouija board encounters. Books have been written about ritualistic satanic abuse.”
None have EVER once been verified.
“The spirit is real whether you believe it or not. And if it is what’s it all about? You may recall from your early days that “God puts eternity on mans heart”. Just about every culture has some method to try and explain their existence (and supernatural happenings) and their rituals etc attempt to contact God. But Judaism and Christianity is God’s attempt to contact man.”
An attempt to contact us?Really? There’s an easier way you know other than creating competing religions who decry warfare on each other in an attempt to prove who’s god is the right god.
“Fred, please, just say a little prayer, “if you are there show me” and i believe He will honor that.
God bless you”
Thank you. I have, many, many times. Mostly as a father of two daughters, I have sincerely asked him to free abducted children and end such a horrific act. It’s only gotten worse. More children than ever are abducted and sold into slavery, prostitution and drub abuse. Why in the world would I ask anything of him for ME when this sort of thing continues in this world?
Fred said: “But realize that the story of Jesus is not at all unique. Dozens of similar stories exist – virgin birth and all.”
Since you are familiar with “dozens” please give us just three, ok.
(To help you out here before you start Googling – the main source quoted repeatedly by atheists is a historian who was not taken seriously by historians. So, Fred, not “him” ok?)
You said “dozens”. In the interests of reason, logic and facts, let’s have a look at just three.
If, however, you decide to modify or withdraw your claim, I will withdraw my challenge.
You seem to forget that I was an atheist for over a quarter of a century. I know ALL the atheist arguments.Probably better than you since I am familiar with the socio-psychological explanations for a belief in God, including those invented by the proponents of that almost trendy parlour game – “Evolutionary Psychology.”
To Richard:
I will give you more than a dozen…
Hinduism:
—————————–
Matsya Avatar of Vishnu
Kurma Avatar of Vishnu
Varah Avatar of Vishnu
NaraSimha Avatar of Vishnu
Vamana Avatar of Vishnu
Parashuram Avar of Vishnu
Rama Avatar of Vishnu
Krishna Avatar of Vishnu
Buddha Avatar of Vishnu
Karna
Yudhisthir
Bhima
Arjun
Nakul
Sahadev
Hanuman
Buddhism
——————————
Buddha Avatar
Mithraism
——————————-
Mithra
Zoroastrianism
——————————-
Zarathustra
Daoism
——————————-
Laozi
Islam
——————————-
Madruk
Egyptian Mythology
——————————-
Horus
Roman
——————————-
Perseus
Apollo
Theseus
Dionysus
Ok you got me. I exaggerated. I should have said “many similar stories exist.” So sue me.
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
As for knowing all the atheist arguments, then answer why god punished all the snakes of the world for something satan did.
How can you create something from nothing?
What light did god create before the sun? “Let there be light. And there was light.” THEN afterwards, he made the sun? What was this light? Did he need to see in the dark – a celestial light bulb so that he could see what he was doing?
How is it that god is a jealous god? Jealousy is a petty human emotion that only people who are desperate display. Yet god admits he is so. Sounds more like a human description of a made up god to scare people into doing things.
Why did Jesus call himself “The bread of life” when we know today that grains are full of anti-nutrients that are extremely harmful?
Shall I go on?
Fred – this is perhaps one of the strangest challenges I have ever encountered.
I told you I know all the atheist arguments. Then you throw at me some of the most puerile atheist “challenges” I have ever seen and ask me to answer them.
Why should I?
If you can drop the silly, moody teenager tone I might feel tempted to respond to you. What I’m saying is – ask serious questions, I’ll give serious answers.
Just one I will answer immediately, to set the record straight:
Your question : “How can you create something from nothing?”
My reply, “I can’t. I was just teasing when I told you I could the other night, after our Slow Burn session.”
Good grief….
Still so snarky and rude.
Well I guess I should apologize for being intellectually inferior to you. What can I say? Some people are born with a big brain, and some (like me) are not. I guess god likes it that way.
But to answer your didacticism, you should answer because it gives you an opportunity to educate.
Rather than make fun of people and treat them like idiots, I think perhaps it might be a tad more Christian shall we say, to be polite and answer the questions in a short and concise manner.
Or not.
But you make yourself look not so intelligent when you call people names.
As for making something from nothing, I wasn’t referring to what you said, I was referring to how god made matter out of nothing.
Good grief…
I’ll be blunt – I think you didn’t answer my questions because you can’t.
Fred – I’m sorry but I still do have a tendency to be snarky and rude. In the UK we call that being “snide”. I had a reputation for it as an atheist. Today I’m a snide Christian. Since you don’t believe in Christianity, you are in no position to throw Christian criteria at me. I’m an imperfect Christian – so what?
I didn’t answer your questions for two reasons.
1) They were a TOTAL non sequitur to my claim about knowing all the atheist arguments. I never said, hinted or even implied that I knew all the Christian answers.
2) Your tone did not suggest that you were asking your questions in a spirit of honest enquiry or genuine exchange.
But in the interests of continuing the dialogue, how about this:
i) why god punished all the snakes of the world for something satan did. – Your question is based on a superficial, 21st century mis-reading of an ancient text. Perhaps you are attacking fundamentalist, Bible-bashing literalists here. As I have said, I am not one of them.
ii)How can you create something from nothing?
That is a problem for the atheists, not Christians. And modern, intelligent atheists have redefined “nothing” in terms of math, cosmology and quantum mechanics. Go talk to them. I don’t understand any of that stuff.
iii)What light did god create before the sun? “Let there be light. And there was light.” THEN afterwards, he made the sun?
Again, a mindless misreading of the text. Though nowhere does this text claim that the Sun was the only source of light in the universe. My individual interpretation is that God created the principle of Light, and the Sun became a source of that light for the Earth.
iv) How is it that god is a jealous god?
Again, you fail to understand the context (historical and literary) of the use of the word “jealous” here.
v) Why did Jesus call himself “The bread of life” when we know today that grains are full of anti-nutrients that are extremely harmful?
Rather than stooping to your level of silliness, let me share this with you. Enjoy.
http://youtu.be/AB2PxvxD0KM
btw…THANKS for Your link to…
Bread of Heaven [IMPORTANT NOTE: Traditional Welsh Hymn–sung in English–Version] – Wales Forever–Rugby-style !!!
Recommended on the same page…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1fLiDjLf5c&feature=related
…featured amazing images of the Welsh countryside–both natural & man/maid made.
Hi Richard,
This may be a bit off-topic, but being a rugby-loving Welshman I thought you’d appreciate a note from rugby heaven. I’m a Kiwi who lives 5 Mins from Eden Park (RWC central). It must’ve been a special type of hell for you to witness the 8-7 loss of your native country to your adopted country. The irony is the 8-7 loss the French Suffered at the hands of the All Blacks.
Could you call that divine retribution – or karma possibly? There is a certain symmetry to it though wouldn’t you agree?
Thank you for that comment, but to be honest I am still in a state of shock after seeing Warburton banished to outer darkness after only 18 minutes of play. A special type of Hell? No. Worse, far worse.
Once again I am struggling with the problems of theodicy.
However, the irony you refer to is is not as symmetrical as you suggest, since France beat us 9-8, not 8-7.
Thanks for the thoughts all the same. I appreciate them, even though it still early days for consolation. Maybe during the Six Nations Tournament. Neck-breaking tip tackles are taken less seriously in Europe.
Perry,
If I understood correctly, you say the discovery of exotic matter persuaded scientists that the universe was indeed created, which gives convincing evidence of the existence of God.
In my comment of October 17 I stated that prominent Philosophers and Historians agree that it is humanly impossible to predict historical events long before they occur. And it is a fact that not a single individual described an event which came to pass in the distant future – except – the Hebrew prophets!
In addition to the example I gave in my comment, I can give 7 examples of earth-shattering events which befell the Israelites thousands of years after the prophets described them.
The explanation is revealed by the fact that all the prophets acknowledged that “the word of God came to me, and told me to write down His words.”
Perry, we are indeed a privileged generation: we are the first generation to have the facts, the knowledge and the ability to realize that God exists.
Elias
I hoped that careful analysis of the evidence brought by Perry
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/09000/Study_of_the_Therapeutic_Effects_of_Proximal.5.aspx
is worth the effort because I believed Perry picked a “good one” and checked it thoroughly before he presented it to us. Well, after short discussion I am not as confident any more.
Conducting human hearing evaluation during ambient noise between 50dB and 100dB is not justifiable from any point of view, as it is vision evaluation during variable broad daylight conditions. It also seems that America is not spiritually and technologically “large” enough to accommodate the research from the mentioned paper, so you need to “travel” to southeastern Africa to do it, and of course in that context you will pick “appropriate” Southern Medical Journal to publish your research. I cannot avoid asking myself, what is wrong with American high-tech hospitals and journals “closer” to homeland with much higher impact factor?
Oh yes, regarding the population sample size tested, it seams that common flu vaccines are much more important than evidence which would eventually prove God exists.
It seems that, considerably challenging test conditions, are nothing more than excuse-defense if someone begin to seriously question the results of the mentioned paper. Of course, the results are statistically processed and you will not find errors in calculation as Perry conveniently asked me to find one. The deception is hidden in the input data with convenient help of the challenging test conditions.
It all mounts to the conclusion that something is terribly wrong here!
Anybody care about it?
Zoran Ozimec
Do you think it’s impossible to judge if a person’s vision has improved in broad daylight?
Do you think it’s impossible to conduct a vision test in broad daylight?
Does 20/20 vision mean something dramatically different in a doctor’s office than it does in the park down the street?
I’m an acoustical engineer. I designed speakers at Jensen from 1993-1995 including the speakers for the Acura Vigor, Honda Civic, Ford Probe and Jeep Cherokee. I’ve published numerous articles in the trade journal of the speaker industry, Voice Coil.
Hearing tests are conducted with headphones. Headphones reduce ambient noise by 30-40dB. This means the noise level the signals are competing with at the point of the listener’s ears wasn’t 85dB, it’s 45-55dB.
I tested a lot of speakers in rooms and cars that had an ambient noise level higher than 45-55dB, and it sure didn’t prevent me from telling the difference between an 80dB signal coming from the speaker vs. a 90dB signal coming from a speaker.
Such conditions are less than ideal. But there is nothing “terribly wrong” here at all. In the audio business, people drive around in cars with an 80+dB ambient noise level and they still play sound systems at 90-95 dB and competently evaluate the sound quality, often nitpicking about differences of 3-5dB.
There is no reasonable basis for discarding data based on a noise floor for the percipient at 55dB.
The study acknowledge that the conditions were not ideal. The conditions described here however don’t prevent us from concluding that the people in the study did in fact experience hearing improvements of 10-60dB. If you want to object, the only thing you can do is derate the results by 10-20dB and conclude that the maximum improvement in anyone’s hearing was 40dB not 60dB.
Still a miracle in my book, Zoran.
And this is only ONE of documented miracles I refer to and link to in my article. I asked you already: what about the others?
Perry, thinking that you can hear a little bit better or see a little bit better is not a miracle. I’ve already describes what a miracle MUST be. It MUST be an occurance that could not have happened unless what we describe as a “supernatural being” could only have achieved it.
Q: If indeed the lord god heard the prayers and intervened, why didn’t he restore their hearing and sight to normal? Why did he only improve their senses just a wee bit?
Perry, you are partially right about car audio testing but the same rules do not apply to audiometry, the testing of our hearing ability. Audiometry is basically about measuring hearing threshold, which was measured at 3kHz in “your” paper. Hearing threshold for young healthy human ears is slightly above 0 dB reference level (20uPa sound pressure). You can see how it is related to the hearing impairment here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf
For example, mild hearing impairment is in the range of 20-40 dB HL (hearing loss) meaning hearing threshold is 20-40 dB above reference level, and moderate in the range of 41-55dB HL and so on.
Calculating worst case scenario from our paper looks like this.
Ambient noise 100dB – headphone attenuation 40dB = 60dB ambient noise as perceived by test subject. It roughly means that any measurement of the threshold level below 60dB is practically impossible. Look at the diagrams in the paper how many data is below that level; too many!
Here is alarming quote from the paper: “The average 3 kHz threshold after PIP was 49.4 dB HL, which was slightly high, perhaps due to high AN.” Please define slightly?
In short, for every hospital-lab on our planet the standard procedure for audiometry is to measure hearing thresholds in the sound-proof room, period.
To perform these measurements near “crowd of people” producing 50-100dB noise, as it was done in the mentioned paper, means that something is terribly wrong with these “scientists”, and(or) physicians. You cannot tell they couldn’t find, somewhere in rural Mozambique, a “kitchen” with a door preferably, if they wanted.
Perry, you persist to ask:
“And this is only ONE of documented miracles I refer to and link to in my article. I asked you already: what about the others?”
My answer is simple, “one at a time” please. We are not finished with this one, or maybe we are?
I sincerely hope you will revise your book of miracles with this one. Maybe, at least, ? sign attached to it?
Zoran
Zoran,
When I took acoustics in college, my engineering professor played a CD for us from the Audio Engineering Society (AES) that had pure tone sine waves. The tones stepped up volume in 5 or 10 dB increments with pink noise playing simultaneously. It was a demonstration of the resolution of our hearing to detect certain kinds of signals in the midst of noise.
You could hear pure tones in the midst of noise that was 10-20 dB louder than the tones.
This is a very simple experiment you can perform for yourself at home too. You don’t have to have an AES CD. All you need is a stereo, a computer and a smart phone with a sound meter app, which is free.
Use your computer to play a 3KHz tone and play white or pink noise on your stereo. FM hiss is fine. Turn on the tone, then raise the volume of the noise until it covers up the tone. You can make this as simple or sophisticated as you wish, but in my case I found I could hear the tone easily until the noise was 15 dB louder than the tone.
Headphones attenuate by 30-40dB and healthy people can detect pure tones 15dB below the noise. This means that as long as the tone at the listener’s ear is at least 45dB, we can conduct a test.
Note that we’re not trying to make an accurate curve of someone’s entire hearing range. All we’re trying to do is determine whether people can hear better after being healed than before. This makes the lower limit of the test even less relevant, because we only need to find out the difference between the minimum SPL level they could hear before vs. after.
The only objection you can legitimately make is that the 60dB figure isn’t completely reliable, so you derate the range to 10-50dB. Or if you’re really pessimistic, 10-40dB.
Even with the problems taken into consideration, the study has still demonstrated a 10-40dB improvement in hearing. The study has also demonstrated a 0 to 15X improvement in vision. Not to mention the other citations and book references here. The woman who healed the deaf people in the study, Heidi Baker, is shown on YouTube on my page in front of a village of Mozambicans healing a deaf woman. Her reputation for healing deaf people is widespread.
“Fred – I’m sorry but I still do have a tendency to be snarky and rude. In the UK we call that being “snide”. I had a reputation for it as an atheist. Today I’m a snide Christian. Since you don’t believe in Christianity, you are in no position to throw Christian criteria at me. I’m an I’m perfect Christian – so what?”
Just pointing it out. That’s all. I don’t have to be a Christian to understand Christian values and point out that your behavior towards me is quite un-Jesus like. The question is, how can you call yourself a Christian without acting like one?
“I didn’t answer your questions for two reasons.
1) They were a TOTAL non sequitur to my claim about knowing all the atheist arguments. I never said, hinted or even implied that I knew all the Christian answers.”
OK that’s honest.
“2) Your tone did not suggest that you were asking your questions in a spirit of honest enquiry or genuine exchange.”
The tone is self imposed. Do you really think I’d spend the time I have if I wasn’t serious?
“But in the interests of continuing the dialogue, how about this:
i) why god punished all the snakes of the world for something satan did. – Your question is based on a superficial, 21st century mis-reading of an ancient text.Perhaps you are attacking fundamentalist, Bible-bashing literalists here. As I have said, I am not one of them.”
I thought the bible was to be taken literally – word for word, no?
“ii)How can you create something from nothing?
That is a problem for the atheists, not Christians.”
No, sorry Richard. It works the other way around. The burden of proof always lies upon the claimant. Believers claim that God exists and that he made something from nothing. It is the believers that have to cough up the info.
“And modern, intelligent atheists have redefined “nothing” in terms of math, cosmology and quantum mechanics. Go talk to them. I don’t understand any of that stuff.”
I have read several of their books – Sam Harris is the best of them IMHO.
“iii)What light did god create before the sun? “Let there be light. And there was light.” THEN afterwards, he made the sun? Again, a mindless misreading of the text. Though nowhere does this text claim that the Sun was the only source of light in the universe. My individual interpretation is that God created the principle of Light, and the Sun became a source of that light for the Earth.”
****Mindless? There you go again.
“iv) How is it that god is a jealous god? Again, you fail to understand the context (historical and literary) of the use of the word “jealous” here.”
Context? So the word “jealous” has other meanings? Why didn’t god say what he meant?
“v) Why did Jesus call himself “The bread of life” when we know today that grains are full of anti-nutrients that are extremely harmful? Rather than stooping to your level of silliness, let me share this with you. Enjoy.”
Rugby? So I take it you can’t answer the question. God should no better than to call himself a food that causes harm.
Fred- We meet again…Sorry I had to leave our “conversation” dangling back on October 8th…but I’m back now from riding shotgun on a great trip back East with My Dad to visit His hometown & other “fav” family & friends & stomping grounds in Western Massachusetts & upstate New York…as well as to touch base with some of My Buds in the Wilkes-Barre corner of Pennsylvania…And I can see that Your arguments/thinking has advanced in length only–NOT in appreciable quality–since we last tagged each other on the basis of our respective lines of reasoning.
RE: Some of the key points that You & Richard have touched upon…
RICHARD: “Fred – I’m sorry but I still do have a tendency to be snarky and rude. In the UK we call that being “snide”. I had a reputation for it as an atheist. Today I’m a snide Christian. Since you don’t believe in Christianity, you are in no position to throw Christian criteria at me. I’m an I’m [im]perfect Christian – so what?”
FRED: “Just pointing it out. That’s all. I don’t have to be a Christian to understand Christian values and point out that your behavior towards me is quite un-Jesus like. The question is, how can you call yourself a Christian without acting like one?”
MARY: It’s Part of the New Testament Record that Jesus DID–IN FACT–made snide remarks (e.g., to His Mother–no less–at the wedding at Cana) and called friends (e.g., Peter) AND foes (e.g., Pharisees) by “insulting names” and would “get physical & cause a scene” if/when He felt it necessary to make His point…
Fred–Your characterization of Richard’s statements to You as being “un-Jesus like” are based on a Neutered Image of Christ that UN- or ANTI- Christians are all too happy to project & promote–Precisely BECAUSE This Neutered Image of Christ IS So Easily & Viscerally Rejected By Most People–Especially As We Mature Into Our Adult Minds.
___________________
RICHARD: “But in the interests of continuing the dialogue, how about this:
i) why god punished all the snakes of the world for something satan did. – Your question is based on a superficial, 21st century mis-reading of an ancient text.Perhaps you are attacking fundamentalist, Bible-bashing literalists here. As I have said, I am not one of them.”
FRED: “I thought the bible was to be taken literally – word for word, no?”
MARY” That’s Right–Fred–NO.
GOD IS THE UNIVERSAL POET LAUREATE of THE UNIVERSE…Figurative Meanings Are To Be Mined From The Literal Scriptural Images…Teaching the overly “literal” Jewish mind of 2000 years ago to “Get” Imagery & Figurative Language Was One of The Main Reasons WHY Jesus Spoke & Taught IN Parables…And–YES–TOO Many–Especially–“Fundamentalist” Christians Today…STILL DON’T “Get” IT.
However–I will add that…
Training the Jewish Mind to hold fast onto the Literal Meaning of what is said & written WAS THE VERY IMPORTANT FIRST STEP Toward Righting Ancient Wrongs As…WAY TOO MUCH of The Ancient World Would Regularly Substitute “Figurative Interpretations” To “Literal Statements” As A Means of Being Duplicitous In Their Dealings With Each Other.
___________________
RICHARD: “ii)How can you create something from nothing?
That is a problem for the atheists, not Christians.”
FRED: “No, sorry Richard. It works the other way around. The burden of proof always lies upon the claimant. Believers claim that God exists and that he made something from nothing. It is the believers that have to cough up the info.”
MARY: Fred–Dude–You’re Clueless.
GOD IS THE WISDOM & THE POWER THAT CREATED & RECREATES–TO INFINITE DEGREES OF INFINITE DETAILS–THE GLORY THAT IS THE UNIVERSE & ALL THAT IS CONTAINED THEREIN.
THIS WISDOM & POWER PRE-EXISTED HIS CREATION IN Much The Same Way That Steve Jobs Preexisted Apple Computers…and all that followed That…
So…
In The Language of Cosmic Physicists…
GOD = Pre-Existing Potential Energy [because–of course–Einstein demonstrated that Energy = Matter(GREATLY Accelerated)] of The Quantum Vacuum…
AND THAT’S Among The MAIN MESSAGES of THIS WEBSITE–Upon Which We Currently Post Our Comments–Cosmicfingerprints…
There IS Agreement & Accordance & Harmony Between The Statements of Judeo-Christian Scripture & The Findings of Cosmology…Even IF…The Different Fields of Study Employ Different Terms & “Instruments” With Which To State Their Ideas & Draw Their Conclusions.
____________________
MARY: Fred–The rest of Your responses to Richard degenerated…in rapid order…to juvenile levels of analysis–And I’m NOT going to dig into them as they’ve ALREADY Been Answered with what I’ve posted so far…
However–I will note that…
While I haven’t read any of the books by Your recommended author–Sam Harris–I am familiar with the kind of home–secular Jewish mother & Quaker father who rarely…if ever…discuss “God” in the presence of their children–that Sam was raised in…
Let Me Just Say…
THIS “Apple” Didn’t Roll Too Far From HIS “Tree”…
8 /
I am just getting acquainted with Sam Harris’s work and I can clearly see and say that his words resonate with logical thinking, rational minded folks like us and yours DOES NOT. Well it probably is futile to continue discussion any more here as many questions I previously asked in this forum to other folks (similar to your mindset) did not (and probably cannot) generate any good answer, and I can also see that “THESE” Apples are not rolling too far from the Trees.
I think this Amazon review of Harris’s book “The Moral Landscape” neatly summarizes the problems with Harris’s logic. Emphasis mine:
296 of 352 people found the following review helpful:
3.0 out of 5 stars
Interesting read, but very shoddy argumentation, October 14, 2010
By
DAG – See all my reviews
This review is from: The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (Hardcover)
First of all, I must say that I am a Sam Harris fan. I enjoyed his previous two books and really like his writing style, which is lucid, lively and engaging. Unfortunately, while the quality of Harris’ prose in “The Moral Landscape” remains excellent, the same cannot be said of the quality of his reasoning.
In “The Moral Landscape”, Sam Harris posits that there *are* objective moral values and they can be determined by science. Briefly, his argument is that morality should be defined as the well-being of conscious creatures, and since the question of what acts or situations will promote/undermine well-being is an empirical one, it is a question that science can (in principle) answer. This is an audacious thesis, and as reluctant moral skeptic who is constantly on the lookout for a convincing account of moral objectivity, I was excited to see whether Harris could support his claims.
However, I was sorely disappointed. Harris’ argumentative technique consists primarily of making bare assertions or rhetorical statements. For example, he says things like “There is little doubt that well-being must include fairness, compassion, etc” or “It seems clear that whether a certain state of pleasure is ‘good’ has to do with whether it is conducive to well-being”. Anyone familiar with argumentative writing would know that when a writer has to resort to bare claims about how “obvious” or “clear” a proposition is, he really doesn’t have any support for that proposition at all.
In a similar vein, Harris rejects Hume’s venerable is-ought distinction by insisting, “If this notion of ‘ought’ means anything we can possibly care about, it must translate into a concern about the actual or potential experience of conscious beings.” He then summarily dismisses the views of people who disagree by asserting that they must be wrong, lying or not making sense! This is very poor argumentative technique indeed.
Harris is slightly more persuasive when he draws analogies between morality and science or medicine. He points out that science and medicine also rest on certain unsubstantiated premises – for example, science assumes that empirical evidence can be relied upon for determining truth, while medicine presupposes that “health” means a long life free of diseases. Yet nobody would say that science cannot discover objective facts, or that health cannot be studied scientifically. By the same token, the fact that one cannot prove that morality is about the well-being of conscious entities is not fatal to the scientific study of morality.
However, upon closer scrutiny, one will find that Harris has ducked the issue altogether. The issue is not whether morality can be studied scientifically, once we accept the premise that morality is about the well-being of conscious creatures. Rather, the issue is whether science can determine what morality consists of *in the first place*. In other words, the question is not, “Can science tell us how to achieve X, assuming that X is moral/desirable/valuable?” Instead, the question is, “Can science determine *whether* X is moral/desirable/valuable?” While the subtitle of Harris’ book suggests that he is addressing the latter question, his book is in fact concerned with the former.
In conclusion, Harris’ book lacks logical rigour and fails to accomplish what it set out to achieve. Nevertheless, it is still a well-written, highly readable book that is informative and interesting, especially when it deals with the neuroscientific aspects of belief, free will and morality. In spite of its significant flaws, I would still recommend it to the average layperson who is interested in this subject area.
For anyone interested in Sam Harris’s writings, you should check out what is arguably the most irresponsible article he has ever published. And if you don’t find it irresponsible, then you’re probably too young to have met people whose entire lives were ruined by taking LSD.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life/
It is amazing the lengths to which he will go in order to avoid God. But I do wish he’d stuck with Buddhism and meditation, without stooping to recommending young people to take drugs.
OK samd- I Know that You felt “abandoned” a couple weeks ago when You posted the following and Nobody Responded…
samd says:
October 18, 2011 at 12:47 pm
“Live and let live – that does not come from any religious belief. What I told here is not coming from any religious belief – it comes from rationality. Your agenda is different here and which hurts other beliefs… your belief disrespects the other paths to God by saying that “only thorugh Jesus one can attain heaven” – by saying and believing that you are disrespecting many other Sons of God who descended upon earth to save mankind in different times. If any of those followers (who are non-Christian) say the same thing – that their path is the ONLY way – then I would tell the same thing to them as I told you here.
You are fully entitled to believe in anything and follow it YOURSELVES… and the same should be applied to everybody else.”
Here’s My Response…
RE: “Live and let live” – Easy To Say–NOT–Easy To Do…And–IN FACT–A Very Shallow & Glib Understanding of How Our World Actually Works.
You try raising Your Kids in a town where “Everybody” takes a “Live and let live” attitude to Drug Use…In NO Time–Your Own Kids Have Been “Hooked” Before They’ve Had A Chance To Grow More Adult-Level Capabilities of Handling All That Life Has To Throw At Them.
Me ??…I chaperoned My Kids & Their Friends well beyond the ages that Most of The Other Parents had opted to “disappear”…AND I have the Tip Line for the Local Police Department on My cellphone’s Speed Dial–To Phone IN “Probable Cause” Eyewitness Info Whenever & Wherever I See IT.
Call Me “Intolerant”–
I Don’t Care WHAT I’m Called…
I Just Care About Raising UP The Happiest & Healthiest & Most Wholesome & Well-Educated & Productive & Non-Neurotic GenNEXT That I Can Help To Raise…
And IF “We” Disagree–
THEN I Will Work To Advance Any&All That I Consider To Be “The Goods” As Best As I Know How…
And IF THIS “Hurts” What Someone Else Believes IS “Good” For Them–TOO BAD:
1) I’m NOT Breaking The Law…
And 2) They Can Do The Work To Advance Their Own Agenda…But They Should Neither Expect NOR Demand That The World Be A “Passive Resistance” ONLY ZONE.
As for Your statement:
“…your belief disrespects the other paths to God by saying that ‘only thorugh Jesus one can attain heaven’…”
…It’s a slightly misconstrued statement of John 14:5-6…
“Thomas said to him, ‘Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'”
Properly Understood…
[IMPORTANT NOTE: A LOT of “Christians” Do NOT–Themselves–Properly Understand The Words of Christ]
ANYWHO–
Properly Understood…
We Are All Part of The Body of Christ–
Whether We Want IT or NOT…
Whether We Know IT or NOT…
Whether We Fight IT or NOT…
Whether We Believe IT or NOT…
Whether We Embrace IT or NOT…
All The Sons AND Daughters–Dude–of All The Peoples & Tribes & Corners & Religions…
[Other IMPORTANT NOTE: Atheism & Agnosticism Are ALSO “religions”]…
…of All The World Throughout All of History–Today–And To Come–
WE ARE ALL PART & PARCEL of THE BODY of CHRIST And All of Our Contributions & Influence–Tho’ IT May Be Known ONLY TO GOD…WILL NEVER BE COMPLETELY ERASED…WILL ECHO FOREVER…For Better & For Worse…
And Even “Our Worse” Will Ultimately Be Redeemed–If ONLY As…Object Lessons IN & OF “When WRONG Things Were Done” &/or “When We Did Things The WRONG Way”–
Ain’t That Right–Adolf ??
ANYWAY–
If People Who NEED Help RECEIVE Help…WHAT IS YOUR REAL OBJECTION To The HELPERS Teaching The HELPED What They Need To Know In Order To Gain The Insights That Will Help Them To ALSO Transition From Being “passive victims” To ACTIVE HELPERS–THEMSELVES ?? Even Jesus Had His–HuMan Limitations–None of US Can Do…Endlessly…FOR Others–We All Have To Learn How To…Rise, Pick Up Our Own Mats & Walk–On Our Own 2 Feet…And THEN Go Out & Help Others–DO THE SAME…
Anything ELSE Would NOT Be A Rational Response To The World’s Problems.
Fred – I’m beginning to like you.
Like so many atheists, without bothering to consult me, you have decided that I am a fundamentalist, literalist Christian. I have never even MET one in France.
I’ve heard about them. I even thought of asking my (atheist) sister to buy me one for Christmas, but apparently there were problems with the quarantine laws.
“I thought the bible was to be taken literally – word for word, no?” – which explains – “Why did Jesus call himself “The bread of life”
Fred – it’s hard enough for many people to even understand Shakespeare’s English – and he was writing only a few centuries ago.
So of course, it gets almost impossibly difficult to understand texts written in Hebrew over two thousand years ago without guidance. Let’s be honest – nobody ever became a Christian by reading the Old Testament as if it were the same thing as a John Grisham novel. (I love J.G.’s books.)
Biblical texts need to be explained. That’s why the Church exists.
I wasn’t aware that Sam Harris wrote about “nothing” in terms of math, cosmology and quantum mechanics. I thought it was mathematicians, cosmologists and physicists who did that. Recently, S.H. seems to have eased up on preaching meditation and is into science-based morality. (You should read his pre-doctoral paper on belief structures and brain activity. I often quote it myself.)
I’m sorry you don’t like rugby. Being a Welshman, myself……see what I mean?
Let me end with an apology…sort of. If all you know about Christianity is based on the historically recent phenomenon called “fundamentalism” as practised in the USA, then your rejection is totally understandable. The New Atheist movement is largely a reaction to Christian extremists who get a kick out of telling anybody who doesn’t share their beliefs that they’re going to burn in Hell forever.
I was born and bred in Wales. I have lived in France since 1984. We’ve now got Macdonald’s (yuk) and KFC, but cursed snakes?
That was why I had a hard time relating to the kinds of questions you have been throwing at me.
In the future, please don’t generalize and stereotype – OK? Maybe you need to read this :
http://www.freechurch.org/pdf/monthlyrecord/sept08.pdf
And I fully accept your explanation about using the slow-buring spirituality quote.
Business is business – on both sides of the Atlantic, though your side is considerably better at it than we are. Ask Perry.