For 25 years Richard Morgan was a card-carrying atheist and flaming Richard Dawkins fan. Born in the UK, living in France, he came to Chicago to tell this special story.
Richard had a radical conversion experience in 2008. Not only did it rock his world in an instant, it incited a riot on the Dawkins Internet discussion board. Despite his mannerly approach, he was quickly banished from the forum.
In this video, Richard tells you his strange yet wonderful story. (It’s featured in the book “The Dawkins Letters” by David Robertson, 2nd edition.)
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Now on to Hitch. This is harder:
“Fred said – “It seems I did a good job of getting to you and getting you to see that there is no evidence for god by making you rant nonsense” Getting to me?
I’m trying to help you Fred. You’re lost and blind, I would like to see you admit and accept the truth that can set you free from that blindness you trust so blindly.”
****I said that because you were clearly becoming defensive and argumentative.
“Nonsense? Let’s put it this way – prove it. You’ve simply done what I keep saying atheists always do – gloss it all over with unthinking illogical denial and dismissal.”
****As I said to Graham, the burden of proof lies upon the claimant. YOU claim there is a god. So prove it. I don’t have to prove there isn’t one since there currently is no evidence for one. THAT my friend is your job. If I tell you that aliens visit me each night it becomes MY job to prove it – not yours to disprove it.
“That is not wise, you’re only fooling yourself. “See, if there WAS actual evidence for God, faith would be unnecessary” You’re still using your faulty definition of faith Fred.”
****How is it faulty? Please explain. Faith is indeed pretending to know things you don’t know. If you knew, you wouldn’t need faith. You’d have knowledge.
“I and others corrected you on that but apparently it didn’t sink in.”
****What you said didn’t sink in because what you and others said is incorrect.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
It is belief about/in something that is NOT NOT NOT based in truth. Read it.
“Or, again, denial, because it ruins your world view and you don’t like that. You have a very narrow minded, and wrong, definition of faith – just like all atheists.”
***No I don’t. You want to believe faith = knowledge or fact but it doesn’t and never will.
“You have great faith yourself – in nothing.”
***People are not nothing. That would be an insult to God – if he existed. I do not have faith in myself. I know myself.
“Yes, without a grain of evidence you believe nothing created everything.”
****That is not what I believe. I don’t believe anything in particular. I understand the science and learn from it. I realize there is much we don’t know. But that doesn’t mean what we have yet to learn = god.
“That’s the atheists’ only option for explaining the universe.”
****Science and facts explain what we currently know. What you don’t see is how incredibly brainwashed you are – the fear you create within yourself – the horror your people have put inside you as a child – lying to you to make you believe in things as they do.
“-”What need is there for faith or belief when you have facts? You’re statements shoot your faith in the foot” Fred, your level of reasoning is very very low.”
****Wow. You got me there!
“When you you press the submit button here, do you know for certain that your text will arrive at my end? You think you do but you don’t. A thousand things could stop it, most obviously like server breakdowns, hacker shut down, electrical glitches, etc.
So you don’t know for sure your words will get anywhere, but the fact that you type them proves you believe, you have faith that they will arrive at the other end of the millions of wires or wave signals. Same applies to everything else. You sit on a chair because you believe, you have faith, it will not crumble under you. Do you know for a fact it won’t? No you don’t. Many have fallen on their arse for such faith. See? You assume it based on evidence from experience. Why do you believe? Because you have evidence – from abductive reasoning – that says they will do according to their purpose. Because they have done so in the past. Worse, why do you believe you’re right, when you yourself have no evidence whatsoever for your belief that there is no god?
Shot yourself again Fred, with your own bad argument. There are differences between that kind of faith and faith in God. But the differences are not contradictions. They are conditions. Once again, you fail to respond with any level of competence in the issues.
You also get a big ZERO for completely ignoring everything I wrote on Darwinism’s failure.
So no Fred, my statements – none of which you have actually responded to – as I expected – demonstrate that you’re deceived, self-deceived in part as well as not thinking any deeper that what your atheist masters have put into your brain.
“And there is no such thing as atheism. It isn’t a thing. It is simply a word believers use to label those who don’t believe in the God story”
Fine, now you’re no longer an atheist.
Bad news Fred, believers did not invent the word atheist.
Allow me to rephrase your last bogus bit of pretentious : “Believe in nothing all you like. Pretend Jesus is the not son of god and that religion can be right. Enjoy the fantasy. Have a ball…”
Like all atheists everywhere and all the time, you’ve managed to apply denial and dismissal once again, to hide yourself from facts and truth.”
****Facts and truths? You have a very odd view of what facts and truths actually are. Good thing you don’t work for NASA or an airline company.
****I said that because you were clearly becoming defensive and argumentative.
Defensive and argumentative?
How you can possible turn self-confidence and disgust over your willful ignorance and resistance to fact, into “defensive …” is beyond me.
****As I said to Graham, the burden of proof lies upon the claimant. YOU claim there is a god.
You’re doing exactly what I keep telling you you’re doing, evasion, escape tactics and denial of reality.
Either you have a chosen position and thus YOU also have a burden of proof, or your atheism is nothing but a passive psychological state that has no meaning at all.
Atheism is not science. It is a position on a metaphysical question.
Is there a God a creator, or not?
You claim nothing created everything. Sorry you have no other choice.
Pretending not to believe anything is ridiculous. You’re not an automaton.
I claim a sufficient cause was required.
THAT is rational and scientific.
You deny this cause is supernatural, but you have no choice on that either as I will demonstrate.
The atheist standard escape tactic to claim he has no burden of proof is ludicrous.
This is nothing but trivializing your own position to the point of non existence. An involuntary state of mind.
You understand virtually nothing of your own position.
You’re an arm-chair atheist, that knows and understands little of the nature of the debate -just like 99% of all the other internet atheists I encounter.
Do you have a position or not?
If you do then you have to support it.
You’re making a POSITIVE CLAIM -THAT THERE IS NO GOD, i.e no supernatural intelligent cause for the existence of Nature.
So let’s see your evidence.
*** I don’t have to prove there isn’t one since there currently is no evidence for one.”
Fred, stop lying to yourself!
Once again, you’re parroting your atheist mind masters that brainwashed that inane little phrase into your head.
PROVE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD PLEASE.
You cannot. You can only make the bare, empty and groundless assertion.
Not only empty but truly ludicrous.
*** THAT my friend is your job. If I tell you that aliens visit me each night it becomes MY job to prove it – not yours to disprove it.
Once again fred you’re using the ubiquitous atheist excuse for failing to back up his own claims. “I don’t have to prove my claim there is no god” – Wrong!
All you’re doing is demonstrating your philosophical ignorance on the issue.
You’re also making a serious equivocation error with your foolish aliens example.
Also known as a false analogy.
I suggest you look those up; modern atheists make these mistakes with almost every word they write on forums.
You’ve made all of them over and over ad nauseum, but you’re still too uniformed to even know it!
****How is it faulty? Please explain. Faith is indeed pretending to know things you don’t know. If you knew, you wouldn’t need faith. You’d have knowledge.
No it is definitely not.
You have your own personal definition of faith fred.
Very childish and very disingenuous.
****”What you said didn’t sink in because what you and others said is incorrect. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith”
Here you pull yet another rabbit out of your tattered old hat by cherry picking definitions of a word.
Why didn’t you use these definitions ?
“faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith
1. COMPLETE TRUST OR CONFIDENCE IN SOMEONE OR SOMETHING.
“this restores one’s faith in politicians”
SYNONYMS: TRUST, BELIEF, CONFIDENCE, CONVICTION; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope
“he justified HIS BOSS’S FAITH IN HIM”
antonyms: mistrust
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine
More
“she gave her life for her faith”
a system of religious belief.
plural noun: faiths
“the Christian faith”
a strongly held belief or theory.
“the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe”
Or how about Merriam-Webster’s definitions:
“faith
noun \ˈfāth\
: STRONG BELIEF OR TRUST IN SOMEONE OR SOMETHING
: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs
: a system of religious beliefs”
Of course, you were too dishonest to choose those references huh? Need more?
Notice that the defs I gave are included in all that? Exactly to what I told you faith is.
You have a lot of FAITH in your atheist masters, in pseudo-intellectual arguments, sophism and just really BAD logic Fred.
** “It is belief about/in something that is NOT NOT NOT based in truth”
Wrong as obviously shown by the full dictionary defs.
Do you believe in your friends Fred?
Do they believe in you?
Is their faith in you based on nothing, wishful thinking – just belief without evidence?
You are sorely mistaken on all points as I just demonstrated.
Faith in God is no different. Its just trust and is based on evidence found in nature, history and for Jews and Christians, the biblical reliability which just happens to be second to none.
There are NO other ancient historical manuscripts as reliable as the collection of books we call the bible. NONE.
Not a single historical reference has ever been proved wrong.
So why then should a person not trust it?
You have no viable answer Fred.
There has NEVER been a single instance of archeology proving any statement in the bible wrong. NONE.
So right there’s the evidence based faith you claim doesn’t exist.
You’re statements are “not even wrong” fred. All based on your own faith in people that have lied to you!
**** No I don’t. You want to believe faith = knowledge or fact but it doesn’t and never will.
Yes you do and Webster and the others just proved it!
Stubborn much?!
No one ever said faith = absolute knowledge.
That’s your peculiar error.
As I also demonstrated.
You lose on this point fred. Admit it.
****”People are not nothing. That would be an insult to God – if he existed. I do not have faith in myself. I know myself.”
So you have no self confidence?
You know virtually nothing about yourself. Nor does any other human.
Have you seen your own brain? The atoms that make up your body? Your thinking is far too narrow and limited.
Again – No one in your entourage believes in you fred?
You lose on this point.
**** “That is not what I believe. I don’t believe anything in particular. I understand the science and learn from it
If you had learned anything from the science you’d know the universe had a beginning.
You’d also know that something necessarily started it. What fred?
Nothing?
You call that science ?!?
Obviously something started it.
Whatever it was HAD to be atemporal (eternal) and not governed by time/space or natural law.
This is obvious since time and space did not exist before the universe began. Nor did natural law.
That’s the correct part of Big Bang theory.
The universe IS Nature.
So we now know Nature had a beginning.
Thus whatever caused Nature CANNOT be a part of Nature.
Now big question Fred:
Q: What do we call something that is not in or part of Nature?
A: You guessed it: Supernatural, supra-natural
There you go. Proof in a nut shell that something timeless and supernatural HAD to have made Nature.
Not even difficult.
A child can see the simple logic there.
And in fact children do see it quickly and easily!
****”I realize there is much we don’t know. But that doesn’t mean what we have yet to learn = god.”
Well then what other supernatural, timeless, spaceless thing can you think of that has infinite power and infinite knowledge? As demonstrated by the universe itself with all its power and natural inter-coordinated inter-dependent laws.
None? Well, we knew you had no other idea.
God is well viewed, since the beginning of history, as supernatural, timeless, spaceless, all powerful and omniscient.
Fits perfectly with what we know!
Thus, its easy to see that your stubborn refusal to accept reality is the real problem here. Not lack of evidence for God.
****Science and facts explain what we currently know
1. Everything I just said about the origin of the universe is Fact. Easily derived by simple logic.
2. You’re totally wrong fred. You’ve been brainwashed into scientism and the logical absurdities of atheism.
Scientists (science as per your usage) can NEVER explain the truly fundamental questions of existence.
And scientists have failed disastrously to explain so many of things and have so often gotten everything wrong its ridiculous. Your FAITH in science is thus unwarranted.
Science is NOT an entity fred!
It is not a person, as per the way you and other atheist non-thinkers, treat it.
There are scientists, there is a method. That’s all.
And here’s another question for ya: Since “Science” actually refers to the body of knowledge discovered by people looking for explanations; and is not a living entity that can explain everything; Which scientists are you referring to?
The atheist ones or the deist, theist and creationist ones?
Hmm?
They all contradict each other.
All the founders of modern science were theists or deists fred!! Most staunch creationists too!
So where do you get off with this inane assumption of opposition between “Science” and “religion”?!
Almost ALL of the greatest scientists were religious!!
Again, you’ve had this “Science vs religion” thought implanted in your mind and you never even noticed it.
That is brainwashing.
Again, all this is so glaringly obvious.
How you miss it is itself astonishing.
Though every theist knows the answer to that “how”.
And this next statement is just SOOOOO ironic its pitiful
–“What you don’t see is how incredibly brainwashed you are – the fear you create within yourself – the horror your people have put inside you as a child – lying to you to make you believe in things as they do”
Amazing brainwashing of your own fred.
This is the standard atheist mantra, doctrine, dogma (fogma) that you have been brainwashed with!!
That’s why ALL new atheists repeat that phrase verbatim everywhere without ever thinking!!
As you just did!
Parrot much?
Worse: Guess what fred, I know of NO theist that lives in fear or of of horrors received as a child!
Every single theist I know lives in peace of mind, happiness, truth and joy of living. Even when things are all hard in their lives.
You’re the one so deeply brainwashed by atheist, secular humanist propaganda its pathetic.
The psychology of atheism is well known and studied now and guess what fred – its is identical to that of religious psychology but with inverted results!!!
All the same underlying motives that your atheist priests, based on long disproved Freudian errors of thought – pretend theists have for being religious!
Unreal.
And, I wonder why huh?
Secular humanism is religion!
It is nothing more than organized, highly religious atheism.
So who is the real brainwashed sucker fred?
Atheists are! YOU!
This is even very easy to prove too.
****Facts and truths? You have a very odd view of what facts and truths actually are. Good thing you don’t work for NASA or an airline company”
lol
I’m feeling more and more sorry for you man.
Denial denial denial and more dismissal of facts.
Oh, and I have worked for many areas in high level government scientific research.
Why would I do that?
Because guess what? I have faith in scientifically demonstrable facts.
NASA sucks these days fred. Ask any real scientists that have had contracts there.
You live in an imaginary world man.
NASA isn’t the end all epitome of scientific research.
HINT: ANYONE can get contracts with NASA these days!
Its all about the lowest bidder. $$$
Use your head for once! Wake up and smell the lies you believe in so deeply.
Like all dupes of scientism, you see nothing real and live in a fairy tale world where science is a real thing unto itself, believing that NASA is nothing but innocent, objective scientists trying to help the world with not a soul among them seeking profit, fortune and glory and that America is still a democracy with no conspiracies possible….
Pathetic.
Me, I have faith in the reliability of mathematics, empirical evidence and the reliability of logic and reason.
Why? Because I know their origin is an absolute intelligence beyond infallible, fathomless and real.
A belief that atheists – if they were truly logical – could never have!
Why?
Because rationality – under atheism – is nothing but electrically active meat!
You’re nothing but a bag of meat fred, a pack of neurons.
Atheist dogma that.
So tell us, how are meat and neurons rational? Hmm?
How is electrochemical activity in meat true or false? Right or wrong?
Good luck on that one.
The day you finally get that simple point through your head you will have taken “your first step into a larger world.”
Your level of reasoning on this is deeply bigoted fred or else you cannot see because you don’t want to see, or again, both; period.
RE: “Facts and truths? You have a very odd view of what facts and truths actually are. Good thing you don’t work for NASA or an airline company.”
Fred–I know that NASA & Airline Companies & Manufacturers count People of Faith IN GOD among their Top Employees. How do I know this… You may ask… ?? I’m closely related to a couple.
It’s Someone …ahem… such as Yourself who ignores, twists & otherwise tortures plainly stated facts & truth and then endlessly parrots the lines of Your Own Preferred “Gurus” who’re systematically weeded O.U.T. of such organizations &/or positions that demand the highest degrees of responsibility, integrity & straight-thinking.
As for Your earlier statements to Graham…
“****Long before he [God/Christ] helps me, I’d REALLY like him to help the tortured and raped children of this earth tomorrow. If he did that, I wouldn’t have to believe in him anymore. I’d KNOW he existed and he’d have my FULL undivided attention 24/7.”
AGAIN–People of Faith IN GOD are at the forefront of such work.
However–They’re up against the immense resources of the International-Sexual-Predator-Tourism-Industrial-Complex… organized by & comprised of People (Men–MOSTLY) who’re today’s practitioners of Social/Sexual Darwinism.
They harken ONLY to Themselves & Their Own Appetites as being the source, center & arbiter of Their own universe…
AND–As Far As They’re Concerned…
Any&All notions of “god,” “morality” & “laws” come from the minds of lesser & weaker men & women and can–Go To Hell.
“Fred–I know that NASA & Airline Companies & Manufacturers count People of Faith IN GOD among their Top Employees. How do I know this… You may ask… ?? I’m closely related to a couple”
****You missed the point – again. The POINT was not that there aren’t believers who work at NASA (do you really think that is what I was trying to say?), but that those who work as engineers at NASA do NOT build airplanes on FAITH that they will fly. They KNOW that they will fly. Having faith that something will occur means that you don’t KNOW if it will occur you just hope it will. You have FAITH that your football team will win but you don’t know. Once you discover that your football team has won, you actually KNOW something and now you no longer have faith.
“It’s Someone …ahem… such as Yourself who ignores, twists & otherwise tortures plainly stated facts & truth and then endlessly parrots the lines of Your Own Preferred “Gurus” who’re systematically weeded O.U.T. of such organizations &/or positions that demand the highest degrees of responsibility, integrity & straight-thinking.”
*****Really? I twist facts and truths? Funny for a believer to tell me I “twist” facts when you have ZERO facts that the Christian god of the bible is THE actual creator of the universe and all of life and the ONE TRUE god. You’re people have twisted and altered your own bible for centuries and left you with a book that is hardly THE TRUTH. What a laugh.
“As for Your earlier statements to Graham…
“****Long before he [God/Christ] helps me, I’d REALLY like him to help the tortured and raped children of this earth tomorrow. If he did that, I wouldn’t have to believe in him anymore. I’d KNOW he existed and he’d have my FULL undivided attention 24/7.”
AGAIN–People of Faith IN GOD are at the forefront of such work.”
***Um, you missed the point again! 🙂 I said GOD – when GOD saves those children – you know like when god cures someone of cancer, makes the tornado miss their house, makes their country win the war, etc. Anytime you folks make the claim that “GOD SAVED ME!” means GOD himself intervened and HE was the one who stepped in and did the job. So what’s he waiting for? Is he actually waiting for humans to do what he could do in a split second? Why? Why is God so cruel to these innocent kids?
“However–They’re up against the immense resources of the International-Sexual-Predator-Tourism-Industrial-Complex… organized by & comprised of People (Men–MOSTLY) who’re today’s practitioners of Social/Sexual Darwinism.”
****What evidence do you have to support your claim that ALL men who abduct, torture and rape children are Darwinists? You mean like Catholic priests? I’ll bet many are religious and don’t even know what Darwinism is. Don’t make sweeping statements that have no basis in fact. Doesn’t it ever bother you that you say things that are completely fabricated and have no basis in reality?
“They harken ONLY to Themselves & Their Own Appetites as being the source, center & arbiter of Their own universe… AND–As Far As They’re Concerned… Any&All notions of “god,” “morality” & “laws” come from the minds of lesser & weaker men & women and can–Go To Hell.”
****You haven’t actually read the Old Testament have you?? NOW I get it…you don’t really know who god is do you? I suggest you pick up a copy at your local book store and read the old testament VERY carefully. You’ll find your lord and savior to be quite a misogynistic, cruel, angry, jealous, seething, unforgiving, insane, dangerous being. If you don’t, then YOU are just like him and it is YOU types of people that ruin this world.
LOL–You’re a Riot–Fred.
To WHATEVER IT IS That You’ve RANTED About IN These Discussions…
Whenever I’ve mentioned the many…
“People of Faith IN GOD are at the forefront of such work.”
Your #1 All-Time “Fav” Response Has Been To Say–NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!
“I SAID GOD – WHEN GOD SAVES…”
[additional caps—My emphasis]
THEN–You GOT The NERVE To Say To Me–
“Doesn’t it ever bother you that you say things that are completely fabricated and have no basis in reality?”
ANYWHO–
Get Your Head OUT of The OLD Testament & INTO The NEW… For a Change !!…
AND–THIS IS IT…
As Far As The Conversation Between Thee & Me Will Go…
I’m hopping off & going to spend more time with more enjoyable pursuits.
BUT FIRST–Here’s An Early–Happy Easter 2U.
Ciao.
Hitch –
Your ramble is impossible to follow – as usual.
I’ll pick a few random statements and try to answer you.
You said:
“So tell us, how are meat and neurons rational? Hmm?”
****I don’t know – and neither do you. The difference is you pretend to know (GOD) and I don’t pretend to know. Your saying this to me is akin to your great, great, great, grandfather using the same logic regarding tornadoes or earthquakes He’d have said to a nonbeliever: “There’s no god? Well then, explain what made the earth quake! If that’s not God’s anger, then what is it?” Today, there is a lot we know that we didn’t know a few hundred years ago that were attributed to Gods doing. There are still many things we don’t know. But just because we don’t know what consciousness is yet, doesn’t mean its proof of a Christian God, Jesus Christ, Satan and angels. I mean, PLEASE.
“How is electrochemical activity in meat true or false? Right or wrong? Good luck on that one.”
****I don’t know and neither do you.
“The day you finally get that simple point through your head you will have taken “your first step into a larger world.”
****My world is quite large – it is your God-centered world that is VERY VERY small, constrained, angry, hateful, racist, misogynistic, bigoted and cruel.
“Your level of reasoning on this is deeply bigoted fred or else you cannot see because you don’t want to see, or again, both; period.”
****My reasoning is bigoted towards whom? Like I said, all God has to do is free all the tortured children in the world from their bondage (you know, just like he did for Moses), and I’ll be at his side 24/7.
*** “Your ramble is impossible to follow – as usual”
You know fred, right there you’re doing nothing but revealing how poorly you reason and/or that you can’t answer what I said, so you seek to evade it.
My “ramble” is simple, to the point and logical backed by references – versus yours which are simple but not logical at all.
For the past few post of yours, you’ve done little more than avoid the hard points that demolish atheism.
“So tell us, how are meat and neurons rational? Hmm?”
****I don’t know – and neither do you.
There you go again. Claiming what you don’t and cannot know, ie what I do or do not know – then projecting it on your opponent.
So how do you know anything about my knowledge on this?
You don’t and can’t but you just claimed you do, thereby, once again, planting you own argument firmly in its coffin by revealing that in fact believe many things without evidence!
You ensnared yourself again by your answer. You say that you don’t know how meat can be rational. But you still believe meat can be rational! How can you believe that which you have no idea on?
In fact, you know good and well that meat is not rational and cannot ever be rational.
Avoiding that obvious fact will not help you get rid of it.
**”The difference is you pretend to know (GOD) and I don’t pretend to know.
You just pretended to know several things that you can’t know Fred!
How can you not see that?
*** “… akin to your great, great, great, grandfather using the same logic regarding tornadoes or earthquakes He’d have said to a nonbeliever: “There’s no god? Well then, explain what made the earth quake! If that’s not God’s anger, then what is it?”
I have no idea how you could get to such an irrelevant statement based on what I actually said. In any case you’re wrong. You once again mistake arguing from ignorance with arguing from probabilities based on observable facts.
*** … But just because we don’t know what consciousness is yet, doesn’t mean its proof of a Christian God, Jesus Christ, Satan and angels. I mean, PLEASE.
Can’t you see that all your doing is reductionism of trying to escape the obvious?
You want to reduce everything in existence to matter and energy, but you fail, because consciousness can never be mere matter, mere molecules.
This is why you cannot answer my question.
The question itself contradicts your whole world view.
If rationality itself is just matter and energy, then we can NEVER know its reliable or not.
As philosopher Alvin Plantinga put it, “If you believe in evolution and naturalism then you have a reason not to think your faculties are reliable.”
Either all thought is nothing but matter and energy – exactly the same as in rocks or plants – or thought is more and can be truly rational.
Matter and energy can never be rational. Every scientist in the world knows this.
Perhaps quoting someone else, saying exactly as I am, will help you:
“If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes…it cuts its own throat.”
“Unless thought is valid we have no reason to believe in the real universe.”
“The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words ‘true’ or ‘false'”.
“If he is honest”, said C.S. Lewis, “the materialist will have to admit that his own ideas are merely the ‘epiphenomenon which accompanies chemical or electrical events in a cortex which is itself the by-product of a blind evolutionary process.’ If all thoughts are merely the products of non-rational causes, this includes the materialist’s own thoughts. In other words, there is no reason according to materialism for materialism itself to be regarded as true.”
“One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.”
Can you see it?
“Was he wrong about some things? Of course he was – we ALL get stuff wrong and need to build upon past knowledge.” What did he get wrong Fred? Please answer – what evidence have you got that evolution was by chance (given that you don’t like “mere chance”).”
****Darwin was incorrect on some issues pertaining to natural selection in that it is far more complex then he suggested. But he didn’t have the tools we have now to see things at the microscopic level. As far as evolution occurring by chance, I do not know exactly how it happened – and neither do you. I do not pretend TO KNOW – but you pretend to know stating that God did it. Where is YOUR proof of that? You can’t ask me for my proof when you have ZERO of your own.
“I can know that he/she/it/them exist when the proof becomes evident. Until then, he/she/it/them don’t exist.” This is seriously silly. Do you know that Julius Caesar existed? You have never seen him but rely on historical accounts. To say that because you don’t know him means he doesn’t exist is really funny and a pretty weak argument.”
****If historical and physical evidence exists for something or someone, then we can say with confidence that it/they existed. I don’t have to have met Julius Caesar in person to know he existed. I never met Abraham Lincoln but we know he existed. To suggest that you have to personally witness something as proof that it existed is what’s seriously silly. So taking your example, do we know for a fact that Julius Caesar existed? Yes, I think there is sufficient evidence to support his existence. I am not a Roman scholar so if I am wrong and there isn’t, then NO – we can’t say with certainty he ever existed. Same for Jesus and God.But again, you believers are always saying to non believers “prove it!” when you have ZERO proof for your position.
“You continue to say that He doesn’t exist – do you claim to know that or do you believe it? Surely you have a responsibility to back up your claim and not use the silly argument that the onus is purely on those who believe in Him.”
****YOU are the ones making the claim that GOD exists. The burden of proof is on YOU, not me. YOU have to prove that your claim is valid. Can you? If you can, what are you believers waiting for? Show the evidence. EX: If I say to you “Aliens visit me every night.” the burden of proof isn’t on YOU to disprove it – it’s on ME TO PROVE IT since I made the claim.
“That is not a belief. If I don’t believe the earth is flat like some people claim it is, is that a belief system of mine too? You are using words incorrectly.” Again a really lame argument. Surely you don’t believe the world is flat because you KNOW otherwise. Do you claim to not believe in God because you know otherwise? You don’t believe elephants have 5 trunks because you KNOW they have one. You don’t believe something because you know otherwise. These are really bad examples.”
****They are examples that have PROOF. Do you not know the difference? How do you get by in life if you can’t tell the difference between what it so and what is make believe? YOU believe there is a god. I say to you “Really? Is there a god? How cool. Can you prove it?” And guess what – you CAN’T. None of you have EVER been able to provide a shred of proof. If you believe that elephants have 5 trunks, I can prove you wrong and show that elephants have one trunk. If you believe the world is flat, I can prove that the earth is round. But elephants actually exist. The earth actually exists. We would be arguing over things that we KNOW exist. We do NOT KNOW that god exists. Not yet at least.
“Long before he helps me, I’d REALLY like him to help the tortured and raped children of this earth tomorrow. If he did that, I wouldn’t have to believe in him anymore. I’d KNOW he existed and he’d have my FULL undivided attention 24/7.” So we are almost back at the beginning Fred – have a look at previous posts where i addressed this – or maybe you just don’t like the answers.
Can you understand that the mere fact that you refer to evil implies that there is a transcendent moral law and thus law giver.”
****No actually. You just made that up. I do not know where “morals” come from and neither do you. The difference is I am willing to say I don’t know but you pretend to know when you know that you don’t know since there is no evidence for god.
“Understand too that the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by atheist regimes.”
****This argument is so lame and so utterly destroyed by virtually every thinker in history that It’s not worth my time discussing it. But just as a single example, Hitler was a god fearing man. He believed in Christ. Read Mein Kampf. Here is a good piece on it.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
Being a murderer and a rapist and not believing in god does not mean that not believing in god makes you a murderer and a rapist. And must I remind you of the Spanish Inquisition? Give this idea up. It’s lame.
“Thinking atheists come to the conclusion that there is no absolute evil or good – only what we can design for ourselves. And survival of the fittest – so what’s wrong with rape and murder!”
****It disallows us to exist as a successful species that’s why. Humans have learned that these practices cause societal degradation and family destruction. DO you think its MORAL for a Muslin to cut the clitoris off their daughters? Why not? They do it for God. A Jewish boys foreskin? You beleivers to WAY worse things to each other than so-called atheists. Open your eyes.
“Anyway lets debate evidence for God – are you up to it? There is evidence for God – unfortunately for you – YOU don’t like the answers. Can you tell me what believers say is evidence for God and what atheists say to refute that?
How is it that incredibly brilliant people can look at all the evidence and some believe and others don’t.”
****Name one piece of evidence that cannot be explained by science.
“And all you can do is rant that believing is delusional. Please answer me – my friend who saw demonic figures and experienced their torment – do you claim to know she was delusional or do you just believe so – come on Fred – admit that you can’t know and that you believe!”
****I’m sure you realize that the human mind can see many unreal things when dreaming, when awake, when troubled and when drugged. The burden of proof lies upon her and/or others to proof that she actually saw and experienced REAL demons – whatever that/they are. Where are they?
“If you were in charge Fred, your judgmental attitude would be dangerous – a bit like the Nazis – all those who disagree with your point would be labelled as inferior – the next step of course is persecution. bless you Fred”
*****No if I were in charge, people would be free to believe what they want. Children would be taught to understand the difference between reality and imagination, gay people would be considered no different than anyone else and would enjoy the exact same rights and privileges as anyone else, I’d disallow female oppression and violence against them regardless of religious beliefs – all thing YOU and YOURS currently ALLOW – in the ironic name of God. Wake up.
To continue attempting to reason with you Fred:
****My reasoning is bigoted towards whom? Like I said, all God has to do is free all the tortured children in the world from their bondage (you know, just like he did for Moses), and I’ll be at his side 24/7.
You don’t understand Fred. You have no concept of what you’re asking. Because you have not thought it through deeply enough.
Your view of God is very childish.
What you want is a comic book super hero god.
One that resembles what you imagine yourself to look like if you were superman.
Not the real God.
You want him in fact to be as “good” as you believe yourself to be.
You want him to be better than you think he is.
The worst is that you’re basing your judgment on God, on the moral sense that could not even exist without him!
How ironic.
“A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers–including even his power to revolt…It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower.”
That’s you.
Here is part of the reason for why things are as they are now in this fallen world: “Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself”
You fail to see that without God, the absolute moral character, it is impossible to have good and evil. All is arbitrary and delusional – exactly as the atheist Darwinists tell you.
But you, you think you’re asking for something good, to relieve something evil!
Where did you get this idea that some things are good and other things evil?
There is only 1 possible source – God.
Otherwise “good and evil” are purely subjective ideas – born in meat – and meaningless in a meaningless universe.
You must ask yourself, “Why is torturing children in the world and holding them in bondage wrong?”
Without God, there is no coherent answer.
Same question applies to sexual slaves, drug dealing, murder, rape, robbery…..
All meaningless without an absolute moral Law; and that is impossible without God the absolute being – just as atheist philosophers tell us!
You can’t win in atheism Fred. You can’t have it both ways.
You have to abandon morality altogether and stop pretending that torturing children is objectively “wrong”, or you must accept that there is a God, who defines morality within himself and objectively declares torturing children to be wrong.
You fail to see that if God were to intervene the way you think he should, he would have to do far more than freeing children.
To be fair and just he would also have to stop all moral crimes everywhere and forever.
But that means he would also have to judge and pronounce sentences upon all moral criminals, like you and I too.
You have broken every moral law of God 1000s of times in your life. You have mocked and denied his existence, mocked those that believe in him, and refused to obey him. You have ignored him, maligned him, spoken against him.
You have often committed adultery in your mind. You have hated people, lied, stolen and 1000s of other moral crimes every day since your youth.
So if God is to stop all the evil people harming children, he will have to stop every crime.
That means you too will be stopped and “jailed” and sentenced Fred.
What sentence do you think God should put upon people like you, that do nothing but mock and deny him?
All while breaking his moral law all the time with brazen faced boldness and insulting him to his face?
All the other people on earth will have to be stopped for all their crimes as well.
Who would be left?
Precisely only very small children that have done no wrong yet in their little lives.
ALL of this is the simple logical suite, the implications of your request.
Funny you never thought of any of this huh?
I wonder why?
The answer is easy – pride.
You somehow believe – based on the moral sense God himself created in humans – that you are a good person.
But you aren’t.
Which of the moral commandments have you not broken, in heart if not in deed?
NONE of them!
For God to be consistent, he would necessarily have to stop ALL wrongs in the world, including yours.
You could NEVER ” be at his side 24/7″, because you yourself are a criminal in his eyes!
Why in the world would God want YOU by his side?!
You’ve done nothing but insult him and deny his existence in the most arrogant manner.
Should he, as God, infinitely greater than you, not punish you for your evils against him and his followers?
Obviously yes.
You haven’t tortured children – I hope – but you’ve broken his commands, his moral law nonetheless!
Why should YOU escape?
You could never even defend yourself before him for such impudent rebellion, such AWOL status, such hypocrisy in wanting him to correct others but not yourself.
I could go on and on just listing all your crimes against him. You’ve spent the greater part of your life in crime against him.
And you seriously think you’d be “at his side 24/7”?!
You see Fred, that’s the simple truth.
You’re a criminal in his eyes, a rebel, a selfish tiny little gnat of a being that dares to rebel, mock your creator, the being that is infinitely greater and smarter than you.
Imagine if you had this same attitude towards the president of the USA or some reigning king in his own country and right in front of his eyes.
You wouldn’t last five minutes.
Now God is infinitely greater than any mere mortal king of some insignificant little planet floating in some very small ordinary galaxy, a mere mathematical point on the universal scale.
So how much more guilt do you have behaving in such selfish rebellion and disobedience against him, than against some mere president?!!
Your crimes are in fact infinite. Committed against an infinite sovereign.
If I were you, I’d be seriously thinking of my future chances of escaping this offended sovereign!
I’d be ready to fall on my face prostrate before him and beg for mercy.
Now Fred, this entire response of yours is just more of the same nonsense and self-contradiction.
You keep claiming to know what I know or not.
I would really love to know just how you obtained such knowledge.
But of course no one believes you anyway when you speak so foolishly – you speak such nonsense by blind faith in your own intellect I might add. How ironic!
You even point me to that site for ignoramus imbeciles nobeliefs!?!
Sheesh how low can you go?!
Now I know why you are so deeply misinformed and deluded and cannot reason logically.
I don’t know as you could find a more asinine, ignorance-based, ill reasoning, downright idiotic site anywhere else on the web!
But you swallow it all, because you want to believe lies.
For obvious reasons.
You’re completely clueless Fred if you think sites that are that bad, that terribly ignorant, unthinking, misguided and misinformed are telling you the truth about anything at all.
Curiously I was there just yesterday, shaking my head in disbelief at the unbelievable amount of pure tripe I found there. All based on the most glaring ignorance I can think of.
You are a glutton for punishment Fred. An easy target and sucker for revisionist history, the worst logic imaginable and lies lies and more lies if you believe the shit written on that one site.
But to refute your seriously BAD response AGAIN! you state,
” As far as evolution occurring by chance, I do not know exactly how it happened – and neither do you.”
See? Just like I said. Endless pretensions to knowledge you don’t have – ie a blind faith statement again!
**”I do not pretend TO KNOW – but you pretend to know stating that God did it. Where is YOUR proof of that? You can’t ask me for my proof when you have ZERO of your own”
I already presented proof. You didn’t even understand it! Or rather you ignored it because it disturbs your crazy ideas on nothing creating everything.
Where did I or any theist here ever say, “God did it”?
You’re foolishly parroting your atheist brainwashers again!
When will you stop being a parrot and start thinking for yourself?!
****YOU are the ones making the claim that GOD exists. The burden of proof is on YOU, not me. YOU have to prove that your claim is valid. Can you?
Of course the theist has a burden of proof but so do you!
As an atheist you make a equally positive claim to knowledge that “there is no God”.
Is that true?
That’s a knowledge claim – ALL knowledge claims have a burden of proof!
You have to provide support for your own position, otherwise you have no position!
-“Can you understand that the mere fact that you refer to evil implies that there is a transcendent moral law and thus law giver.”
****No actually. You just made that up.
Fred, your response would be hilarious, if you were not serious.
If you can’t see the truth of that statement you have a very serious mental block or inability to reason from point A to point B.
Fyi, THAT is one of the oldest, most well established FACTS of reason in history!
Your deep ignorance of atheist philosophy, logic and history of atheist philosophy as well as theist philosophy is appalling!
There is NO SUCH THING AS GOOD OR EVIL without a transcendent moral law!
And guess what Fred? Atheist philosophers ALL say so!
THAT is the very reason they claim there are no moral absolutes, no objective moral values and NO real good or evil!
Sheesh DO you bloody homework for once!
What he stated is a very simple logical conclusion. How you could miss it is the real question here!
Let me quote to you some of your own priests:
First Mr Dawkins, one of your idols wrote, “Theologians worry away at the `problem of evil’ and a related ‘problem of suffering.’ … On the contrary, if the universe were just electrons and selfish genes, meaningless tragedies… are exactly what we should expect, along with equally meaningless good fortune.
Such a universe would be neither evil nor good in intention. It would manifest no intentions of any kind. In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. THE UNIVERSE WE OBSERVE HAS PRECISELY THE PROPERTIES WE SHOULD EXPECT IF THERE IS, AT BOTTOM, NO DESIGN, NO PURPOSE, NO EVIL AND NO GOOD, NOTHING BUT BLIND, PITILESS INDIFFERENCE. As that unhappy poet A.E.Housman put it: ‘For Nature, heartless, witless Nature. Will neither care nor know.’ DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” – Out of Eden, page 133.
Evolutionist Michael Ruse puts it this way:
“MORALITY IS NO MORE … THAN AN ADAPTATION, AND AS SUCH HAS THE SAME STATUS AS SUCH THINGS AS TEETH AND EYES AND NOSES… MORALITY IS A CREATION OF THE GENES”.
Naturalist Simon Blackburn says much the same:
“NATURE HAS NO CONCERN FOR GOOD OR BAD, RIGHT OR WRONG… . WE CANNOT GET BEHIND ETHICS.” – S. Blackburn, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Cambridge, Being Good:A Short Introduction to Ethics
Evolutionary biologist E. O. Wilson said that morality is just a survival mechanism:
Ethics “IS AN ILLUSION FOBBED OFF ON US BY OUR GENES TO GET US TO COOPERATE,” AND “THE WAY OUR BIOLOGY ENFORCES ITS ENDS IS BY MAKING US THINK THAT THERE IS AN OBJECTIVE HIGHER CODE TO WHICH WE ARE ALL SUBJECT.”
— Michael Ruse and E.O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics” in James Huchingson, Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1993), p. 210.
“If there is no God, everything is permitted” – Jean Paul Sartre on Ivan Karamazov – Fyodor Dostoevski’s characte
*** I do not know where “morals” come from and neither do you.
There you go again, spouting knowledge you DO NOT possess!
By pure blind faith in your own mind!
*** The difference is I am willing to say I don’t know but you pretend to know when you know that you don’t know since there is no evidence for god.
PROVE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD FRED.
Put up or shut up!
You have NO clue what you’re saying. You’re once again blindly mindlessly repeating what your atheist masters told you to believe and to say!
Have you heard or seen ALL evidence for the existence of God that exists?
More than obviously NOT!
So how in the world do you possess knowledge that there is no evidence for God?!!
You perpetually contradict yourself in the most shameful ways!
“Understand too that the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by atheist regimes.”
****This argument is so lame and so utterly destroyed by virtually every thinker in history that
I’m really sorry Fred, but this ignorance-based statement of yours ought to be turned against you yourself!
AGAIN!
DEATH BY GOVERNMENT, the book By R.J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, along with many other books by him and others on the subject demonstrates with VERIFIABLE FACTS that his statement is absolutely true!
Look it up for petes sake!
Between Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin, Moa and Pol Pot alone – all staunch hard line atheists, in hard line OFFICIAL atheist regimes, murdered more than 160 million people during the 20th century alone!!!
How dare you lie and deny this salient history FACT!?
You are one hell of an ass Fred! Denial denial denial – that’s ALL you EVER DO here!
*** It’s not worth my time discussing it. But just as a single example, Hitler was a god fearing man. He believed in Christ. Read Mein Kampf. Here is a good piece on it.
Your so-called good piece on it sucks big time Fred.
You believe what you want to believe, that’s it that’s all and you will believe, like a true sucker, ANYTHING at all that you think supports your seriously misinformed views!
The imbecile that wrote that piece, curiously (not) left out all the truly important history – being a total idiot and ignoramus himself! With the same willful ignorance as you.
Do I have to point you to the links of the archives of the Nuremberg Trials documents that PROVE beyond a shadow of doubt that Hitler’s next target after the Jews was the Christian church!?!?!
Shit but you are LAME at doing ANY kind of competent research at all!
No wonder people get angry and frustrated attempting to reason with you!
Hitlers “Table Talks” – easily found online now – reveal even MORE clearly that Hitler HATED the Church and wished to destroy it after ridding himself of Jews, black, homos, pedos, etc.
Moreover the ENTIRE Nazi regime’s plans for the “supreme race” were founded on Darwinism!
Any fool can see this but no, not you, not the new atheist twits that live in perpetual denial of reality!
Yet Richard Wiekart’s books prove this beyond any possible doubt!
You fools have to distort every fact, every piece of logic and even history itself to deny to yourselves what is glaringly obvious to ALL other people.
Hitler was a Darwinian fanatic seeking to eliminate what Darwin called the “inferior races!” – ie blacks, Aborigines, Indians etc.
The whole Nazi dream was to “save” mankind through artificial selection – ie killing off the inferiors!
The Christian church was lied to over and over again by Hitler wearing his little god-fearing masks to seduce the leaders to his side – only later to destroy the church completely.
You can deny it all you please, what a surprise, but your stupid denials change nothing at all of the historical facts!
I see no reason to even attempt any further “casting pearls before swine” here – ie YOU – since your blindness, thickheaded bullishness and stupidity are far too far close to insanity to be redeemed by any knowledge.
Refuting your persistently inane rebuttals is useless since you are a blind, follower of the blind. A man that denies the existence of light because he cannot see it!
God have mercy on your truly wretched soul!
Hi again Fred
The thread running through your discourse is there is no proof for God therefore He doesn’t exist. That’s just not logical. CS Lewis said that you don’t have to see the architect to know that he exists when you walk into a wonderfully designed house. God is supernatural, so by definition He doesn’t conform to the rules of nature – He created them. But there are many things that point to Him and there are many things that are not explained by science.
A man (unbeliever) was dying from liver cancer. After prayer initiated by his wife and including hundreds of people he was totally healed. His specialists talked of his recovery as a miracle. Google “the miracle of sarah lyn”. Here was a young girl who died and over the course of 24 hours of constant prayer was restored to vibrant life. A friend of mine suffered a serious sporting injury and following surgery was paralysed from the waist down. His symptoms also included chronic debilitating pain. After waiting 6 months he consulted a world renowned spinal surgeon who said to him “if your looking for a miracle you have come to the wrong place”. so he went to healing rooms and after a total of 18 months in a wheelchair he got up and walked. His own doctor couldn’t believe it. The nurse who was present when he got out of the chair claims to have seen his calf muscles growing as he began to walk.
These things at least point to something else going on rather than a mechanistic or materialistic process. Dare I say spiritual?
A friend is an undercover Federal policeman. He found himself in a dire situation. he was exhausted and thought he would be happy to die. He was about to be run down by a car – “Graham I kid you not – I don’t know what happened but something lifted me up and i was thrown out of the way – I remember flying through the air and when I picked myself up there was not a scratch on me.”
Another acquaintance is a medical pathologist – an unbeliever – he was playing roulette and he claims a voice told him what number would win. He bet on that number and it won – this occurred three times in a row – witnessed by his partner. It really spooked him. I’m not saying all these things are Godly things but they point to something more than materialistic explanations.
My friend with the demons – she consulted a psychiatrist who totally disagreed with your explanation that it was her mind playing tricks on her – i think he is better qualified than you to make that claim- he was not a believer but told her to go see a priest. So Fred here a a number of people, both believers and non believers who at least allow room for something to exist that is outside a materialistic world view.
As far as my friend having the burden of proof that she was oppressed by demons – she would say “why would i bother – I know what happened – if people don’t believe me that’s their problem”.
Your opinions demonstrate that you have a materialistic world view. That nothing exists that you can’t see, touch or feel. You will deny it but this is what you believe. You can’t know that their is no spiritual dimension.
On the question of Julius Caesar – did you know that there is more evidence for Christ than for Julius. Yet people like Dawkins keep talking about “the Christ myth”. Interestingly, Dawkins admitted that his book was inaccurate in a debate with Professor John Lennox, and admitted that Jesus in fact did exist – the evidence is overwhelming. And in the words of Simon Greenleaf, Professor of jurisprudencesaid of the documents of the New Testament – “you may choose to say I do not believe it all, but you may not say that there is not enough evidence”
And on the question of Hitler – he was not a christian or God-fearing man – that is wrong. One of his heroes was Frederick Niersche – atheist. At Auschwitz there is a sign with a quote from Hitler – it reads – “I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality…We will train young people before whom the world will tremble. I want young people capable of violence – imperious, relentless and cruel” – don’t believe everything you read Fred.
I believe that your attitude is dangerous – that you would teach people the difference between imagination and reality – based on what you believe – can’t you see that – can’t you see that yu would be imposing your beliefs on others?
I thought I’d have another go
Fred says “YOU are the ones making the claim that GOD exists. The burden of proof is on YOU, not me. YOU have to prove that your claim is valid. Can you? If you can, what are you believers waiting for? Show the evidence. EX: If I say to you “Aliens visit me every night.” the burden of proof isn’t on YOU to disprove it – it’s on ME TO PROVE IT since I made the claim.”
You just don’t like the evidence for God. You have the position that because you think there is no evidence then there is no God. This is the illogical atheist that goes from “there is no evidence for God to there is no God”. That is silly. But there is evidence for God. Get hold of the William Craig material, John Polkinghorne (professor of Physics), Francis Collins and so on. There is evidence – you just don’t like it and make the innane conclusion that because you are not satisfied then He doesn’t exist. I would have much more respect for your argument if you said “the evidence doesn’t impress me but I cannot prove there is no God – I cannot know that there is no God” – but you won’t admit this. But you will stridently give your opinion.
Fred says “This argument is so lame and so utterly destroyed by virtually every thinker in history that It’s not worth my time discussing it. But just as a single example, Hitler was a god fearing man. He believed in Christ. Read Mein Kampf. Here is a good piece on it.”
This is wrong – just cos you say its lame doesn’t mean it is – this comment just reflects your shallow understanding of the fact that atheistic regimes have prepetrated the most horrific crimes of the 20th century. I’m not saying all atheists are evil or anything like that – but i am saying that these evil regimes are bourne out of an atheistic mentality. Viktor Frankl says “I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz ….were utltimately prepared not in some ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and in the lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.
are you a nihilist Fred?
Fred says “No actually. You just made that up. I do not know where “morals” come from and neither do you. The difference is I am willing to say I don’t know but you pretend to know when you know that you don’t know since there is no evidence for god.”
How good it is that you don’t know where morals come from – but you do know that there are morals – it is never right to kill someone, rape someone, steal etc. It makes total sense that the morals we know exist, come from somewhere outside of us. Most thinking atheists have to come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as good or evil, nothing that trancends the natural – just what we make of it ourselves – but you admit that there are transcendant morals that are independant of just what we can make up – well done Fred – you are getting there.
Greatly looking forward to your reply
Where oh where do I begin? The depth of the goal post shifting, and other logical fallacies between Hitch and Graham is truly mind blowing. Good job fellas!! 🙂 But you both need editors.
Well, let’s start with this one. Hitch said:
“Of course the theist has a burden of proof but so do you! As an atheist you make a equally positive claim to knowledge that “there is no God”. Is that true? That’s a knowledge claim – ALL knowledge claims have a burden of proof! You have to provide support for your own position, otherwise you have no position!”
***Didn’t I already explain this like a gazillion times to you already? I even gave examples using an elephant. I’ll try again…
The burden of proof lies with the claimant. If you make a claim that something EXISTS when there is no proof that it exists (you know, actual proof – like in a court of law), if you want others to accept your claim you need to provide evidence – in other words proof.
EX: I tell you that that unicorns exist. You respond by saying “Really? Cool. Amazing. Wow. Let’s see!” You now have asked me to provide evidence and right ly so. So, I need to provide a unicorn or at least solid evidence that one exists.
If I can’t provide any evidence, and you then say to me “Well, seems like unicorns don’t exist Fred.” you do NOT need to prove the unicorn doesn’t exist to support your statement. That’s absurd. The unicorn doesn’t exist. It never did. My claim doesn’t make the unicorn real.
The only time a claim against something requires proof is when the thing is already real and has evidence that is it so.
EX: We know that Jupiter has 64 moons. We can see them. Each one. Proof. I come along and say “No – it only has 63 since one is just an asteroid. I know have to proof that one of the moons is just an asteroid. We know that the moon like object exists – but my claim is that it’s not a moon. Like what we did to Pluto. Not a planet – via evidence.
Your claim is that there is a supernatural being called God/Jesus somewhere that created everything and governs our lives and want us all to be Christians. You claim that Jews are wrong, and Muslims are wrong and that EVERY religion except for Christianity – your Christianity – is wrong. Where is your evidence to support your claim?
To shift the goal posts on me by saying that I need to prove God/Jesus doesn’t exist is akin to a child saying to his friend “Well, prove that Puff the magic dragon doesn’t exist.” Sorry kid. That’s not the way it works.
The inability to prove that an imaginary being doesn’t exist has nothing to do with, nor does it absolve you of the burden of proof to prove that it does exist.
You and other believers just don’t want to accept this since you know you can’t prove God or any of what you believe. This makes you question how you arrived at such an illogical conclusion and rather than admit it and just say “I don’t have any proof.” You shift the goal posts onto the other person as if somehow this absolves you of having to come up with evidence like a “See! gotcha!!” moment.
Sorry there Hitch. Listen, you just go on believing what you want to. Enjoy the fantasy. It seems to soothe you and others to believe in such things. But while you enjoy the fantasy, you also completely ignore the incredible poison it spreads.
Since your name is Hitch, you should spend some time listening to Hitchens.
Oh and Hitch, calling other people names like twits, etc. doesn’t make you right. It just makes you seem bitter and desperate.
You also said:
“Fred I believe that your attitude is dangerous – that you would teach people the difference between imagination and reality – based on what you believe – can’t you see that – can’t you see that yu would be imposing your beliefs on others?”
****No since I would differentiate between what we know to be true and what we believe to be true. You can’t seem to do that very well.
I don’t believe in gravity. Gravity exists. I don’t believe the Earth is billions of years old – it is billions of years old (it certainly is NOT 6000). I don’t believe we evolved to become homo sapiens over millions of years, we did evolve. We were not just plopped on the surface of the planet 6000 years ago and Eve was not made from the rib of Adam.
It’s you and the other believers that are seriously dangerous telling people that we we already know to be true isn’t and to believe that a fairy tale made up 2000 years ago by illiterate nomads supersedes what science has discovered.
Look at all the horrors you cause with your religions. You cut the clits off young girls, cut the foreskin off boys penises, force women into subjugation, discriminate against women disallowing them to have equal say and power in the church as well as against homosexuals. You horrify children into believing they are born sinners and that the devil and demons and hell are actually real.
That is some sick shit you people do to each other.
ANYONE can be evil – both believers and non believers. But YOU people purposefully cause physical and emotional harm in the name of your religions. And you say I am dangerous? Wowee.
Hi Again…
I’m not going to jump into the full kettle of fish that Y’all have cooked up in the last month or so…
However–Fred–You’ve touched upon one of the key points of Modern Twisted Logic that–I believe–could use some More Highlighting…
You wrote–“Look at all the horrors you cause with your religions. You cut the clits off young girls, cut the foreskin off boys penises, force women into subjugation, discriminate against women disallowing them to have equal say and power in the church as well as against homosexuals…”
Your lecture follows along much the same lines as those who demand of us to be tolerant of the Gender-Bending-Industrial-Complex that works to get Kids at ever younger and younger ages&stages to question their sexual identity when–by their own nature–they are still immature and in formation.
THEN–After the Fields of Transgender Surgery & Pharmacology & Psychiatry & Psychology have raised up enough Practitioners eager & hungry for–BUSINESS…
[NOTE: The FULL Male to Female Price List posted at The Philadelphia Center For Transgender Surgery Totals OUT at $140,450 & $145,650 for the FULL Female to Male AND Both Total Transformations Require Approximately 20 Surgical Procedures]…
We see all manner of M.D.’s and other so-called Experts in These Fields green light the full surgical & pharmaceutical transformations of males to females & vice versa.
IT IS US–Here IN America who’re willing to NOT ONLY Tolerate but participate in & profit from the gutting & rewiring of Peoples’ Bodily (NOT just fashion-wear) Gender Identity–Who Should SHUT UP OUR Collective MOUTHS & STOP Lecturing “Primitive” Cultures… over their relatively minor gender-issued surgical modifications.
The Ancient Admonition–“Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!”–Comes To My Mind.
“So if God is to stop all the evil people harming children, he will have to stop every crime.”
***Be nice, yes. But you KEEP evading the main point which is (AGAIN) if he does intervene sometimes and DOES cure cancer, save a person from being raped, heck, he even saves bad people from harm sometimes, why isn’t he doing this all the time? Answer: He isn’t helping anyone because he really isn’t there.
“That means you too will be stopped and “jailed” and sentenced Fred.
What sentence do you think God should put upon people like you, that do nothing but mock and deny him?”
****Questioning him is mocking him? Is his ego so small that my curiosity and questioning is so horrible to him? After all, didn’t he give me free will? What good is free will if it can’t be used freely?
“All while breaking his moral law all the time with brazen faced boldness and insulting him to his face?”
****Who punished people for insults? No one.
“All the other people on earth will have to be stopped for all their crimes as well. Who would be left?”
****Maybe he should start over if we’re all so horrible, no?
“Precisely only very small children that have done no wrong yet in their little lives.”
****There ya go! BINGO!!! Like I said, why isn’t he helping the little children who have never done a bad thing in their little lives?
“ALL of this is the simple logical suite, the implications of your request.
Funny you never thought of any of this huh?”
****Sounds more like YOU never thought of it – and STILL don’t.
“But there is evidence for God. Get hold of the William Craig material, John Polkinghorne (professor of Physics), Francis Collins and so on. There is evidence – you just don’t like it and make the innane conclusion that because you are not satisfied then He doesn’t exist.”
****None of these people have provided evidence. Name one piece of evidence from them that you think is the best concrete proof that God actually exists and specifically, a Christian God.
Hi Fred
You said “Didn’t I already explain this like a gazillion times to you already? I even gave examples using an elephant. I’ll try again…
The burden of proof lies with the claimant. If you make a claim that something EXISTS when there is no proof that it exists (you know, actual proof – like in a court of law), if you want others to accept your claim you need to provide evidence – in other words proof.
EX: I tell you that that unicorns exist. You respond by saying “Really? Cool. Amazing. Wow. Let’s see!” You now have asked me to provide evidence and right ly so. So, I need to provide a unicorn or at least solid evidence that one exists.
If I can’t provide any evidence, and you then say to me “Well, seems like unicorns don’t exist Fred.” you do NOT need to prove the unicorn doesn’t exist to support your statement. That’s absurd. The unicorn doesn’t exist. It never did. My claim doesn’t make the unicorn real.
The only time a claim against something requires proof is when the thing is already real and has evidence that is it so.”
Fred – Wow – first it was flat earth, then elephants with 5 trunks and now its unicorns. Millions upon millions of people believe in God – that He is supernatural and provides the most coherent answer to life. This is a fact Fred. You reveal your prejudice by equating God with unicorns. You need to go back to the website where you have received help to make this post and give them this quote from an avowed atheist – Scott Atran. In response to Sam Harris’ presentation at the Salk institute he said “I find it fascinating that among the brilliant scientists and philosophers at the conference, there was no convincing evidence presented that they know how to deal with the basic irrationality of human life other than to insist against all reason and evidence that things ought to be rational and evidence based. It makes me embarrassed to be an atheist”. I absolutely believe he would be embarrassed by your flat earth, five trunked elephant and unicorn arguments.
Fred says “Look at all the horrors you cause with your religions. You cut the clits off young girls, cut the foreskin off boys penises, force women into subjugation, discriminate against women disallowing them to have equal say and power in the church as well as against homosexuals. You horrify children into believing they are born sinners and that the devil and demons and hell are actually real.
That is some sick shit you people do to each other.”
Please think a little more deeply – your comments imply that there is a “good” and an “evil” (“….sick shit”). There are morals – which you have agreed to, in open contradiction to many of your atheist mates who believe that there are no absolutes – go back and read Hitch’s posts about this – so lets follow this line of thought. I am borrowing an explanation from Ravi Zacharias – the person who moralises assumes intrinsic worth in himself and transfers intrinsic worth to the life of another and thus he considers that life worhty of protection – as the illustrations you give point to. But in a world in which matter alone existsthere can be no intrinsic worth – this is why your mates say there really is no distiction between good and evil – there is no objective moral law. What is really amazing is that you are using moral reasons to try and disprove the existence of the moral law giver. Ravi goes on to quote J L Mackie – a vociferous atheist who challenges the existence of God on the basis of the reality of evil, says “We might well argue…that objective, intrinsically prescriptive features, supervenient upon natural ones, constitute so odd a cluster of qualities and relations that they are most unlikely to have arisen in the ordinary course of events, without an all powerful God to create them”.
It was this type of thinking that led to atheists Antony Flew and John Paul Satre to radically change their position to a theist one.
To say that Christians would condone the sorts of things you posted shows again your ignorance – which i guess is predictable. Jesus who I follow bought hope to the oppressed, preached unconditional love, forgiveness, kindness and so on. Fred – your country’s foundations are from the Judeo – Christian ethic – which allows people like you to have your views. To lump all religions in together is not good argumentation – look at the principles which underlie them. There is a great quote from Mathew Paris – another avowed atheist who has visited Africa many times – he says – “Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.” Wow that’s cool – an unbeliever who can see first hand the amazing transforming power of the Gospel – good changes that outstrip what secular organisations can achieve.
Fred says “None of these people have provided evidence. Name one piece of evidence from them that you think is the best concrete proof that God actually exists and specifically, a Christian God.”
Fred – the mere fact that you ask this question shows your lack of understanding of faith. It’s like walking into a house blindfolded and insisting that the owner prove there is an architect by showing them the best brick. It’s the whole house – a coherent world view that explains the big questions. Humans are the only creatures on the planet that are concerned with where they came from, what’s the point of it all and what happens after death. You say we are concerned with this purely by accident and there are no answers other than “..there is nothing other than what you invent for yourself”. You can look at http://www.dwillard.org.
But the best way Fred is to let me introduce you to Him. Let me pray for you to get a supernatural revelation of Him – like millions of others have – that is the best. Step out mate – ask me – what have you got to lose?
Bless you Fred
Hi Fred I thought you would like this quote from David Berlinski – a very brilliant physicist, mathematician and author (and an unbeliever!)- he says
Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close.
Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close.
Have the sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close.
Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough.
Has rationalism in moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough.
Has secularism in the terrible twentieth century been a force for good? Not even close to being close.
Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion within the sciences? Close enough.
Does anything in the sciences or in their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even ballpark.
Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.
=Graham – Your faith really has your sense of logic seriously repressed.
To answer each statement:
Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close.
****Has anyone provided proof of the non existence of aliens? The Easter Bunny? The abominable snowman? Yeti? Not even close. So I guess all these exist, correct?
Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close.
****So what? This is not proof that God, especially the Christian God exists. We just don’t know. And neither do you.
Have the sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close.
****So what? This is not proof that a god, especially a christian god exists.
Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough.
****This one is argumentative nonsense.
Has rationalism in moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough.
****So what? This is not proof that a god exists.
Has secularism in the terrible twentieth century been a force for good? Not even close to being close.
****This is wrong and as you well know, many have suffered and died in the name of religion. And this continues today.
Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion within the sciences? Close enough.
*****Same could be said for religion.
Does anything in the sciences or in their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even ballpark.
****This is laughable. The religious believe in supernatural beings. Do you think people who say there were abducted and probed by aliens irrational? You guys are worse than them.
Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.
****That is just stupid. Atheism isn’t a thing. It doesn’t exist.
“But the best way Fred is to let me introduce you to Him. Let me pray for you to get a supernatural revelation of Him – like millions of others have – that is the best.”
****Just because millions of people believe in a thing doesn’t make the thing real. Millions of people still think the sun revolves around the Earth. Millions of people still think the earth is only 6000 years old. Millions of people think black people are inferior and a different race. The list is endless.
Step out mate – ask me – what have you got to lose?
****If he’s there, fine. Why do I have to do or think anything in particular about it/him? Is its/his ego so weak and petty that if I don’t kneel and pray to him he will burn me up and won’t talk to me when I die? If so, I don’t want to know the asshole.
Atheism doesn’t exist eh? This is straight out of Sam Harris. But did you know that Sam Harris presented at conferences like “The new Atheism” – don’t you think its pretty funny that he presents at conferences where he doesn’t believe what’s in the title. I wonder if he would present at the “New Unicorn conference”.
Fred, please just think more deeply for once. The quotes above came from David Berlinski – at least acknowledge that there are very very clever non believers who think differently from you, very differently. Fred, you don’t even know why he said the things he did – your uninformed comments absolutely prove this – do an internet search on him and get his book(s). He is a very clever man with well thought out arguments that are much richer and informed than yours and your heroes.
I’m glad that you acknowledge that millions upon millions of people believe in Him. But you don’t know why they do. You make a truth claim that they are delusional. As Hitch said its reasonable if anyone makes a truth claim that they prove it or at least provide evidence for it. I provided some evidence preciously about the validity of the 4 Gospels, about how it was reviewed by a professor of jurisprudence – go back and have a look at this Fred and see why he said the things that he did.
And no, God is not what you say about Him – He is a gentleman and one of His gifts to you is free will – it is sacred and He will not violate it. He loves you and your family. He cares for all of you and it hurts Him that you have such influence over some people, leading them astray and yes – possibly to an eternity of damnation. It is serious business Fred: I urge you. please think more deeply – mock and carry on as much as you want on this website to keep face if you have to, but please think carefully and investigate more fully the evidence of God put forward by really great thinkers like CS Lewis – read Mere Christianity – I’ll buy you the book if you would like.
Anyway – I think I am done as well – I’m sure Perry has better things to do than to preside over the type of debate we are having. If I get to the US again and I’m in your neck of the woods Fred, I’ll look you up and buy you a beer (or a juice).
Bless you and your precious family Fred.
McBlanc said:
Hi Again…I’m not going to jump into the full kettle of fish that Y’all have cooked up in the last month or so…However–Fred–You’ve touched upon one of the key points of Modern Twisted Logic that–I believe–could use some More Highlighting…”
****Modern twisted logic. Do tell.
“You wrote–“Look at all the horrors you cause with your religions. You cut the clits off young girls, cut the foreskin off boys penises, force women into subjugation, discriminate against women disallowing them to have equal say and power in the church as well as against homosexuals…” Your lecture follows along much the same lines as those who demand of us to be tolerant of the Gender-Bending-Industrial-Complex that works to get Kids at ever younger and younger ages&stages to question their sexual identity when–by their own nature–they are still immature and in formation.”
****Nice shifting of the goal posts there McBlanc. Talk about twisted logic. And more hate talk from you. FACT: Some people are born homosexual. Some heterosexual and some bisexual. But your religion of hate and intolerance won’t allow you to see the truth.
But back to the main point – do you deny that religions participate in the aforementioned evils? Doesn’t matter if you do or don’t because the answer is indeed religion does.
“THEN–After the Fields of Transgender Surgery & Pharmacology & Psychiatry & Psychology have raised up enough Practitioners eager & hungry for–BUSINESS…[NOTE: The FULL Male to Female Price List posted at The Philadelphia Center For Transgender Surgery Totals OUT at $140,450 & $145,650 for the FULL Female to Male AND Both Total Transformations Require Approximately 20 Surgical Procedures]…”
****So what? What is your problem with allowing individuals to seek out their own happiness? Why don’t you mind your own business?
“We see all manner of M.D.’s and other so-called Experts in These Fields green light the full surgical & pharmaceutical transformations of males to females & vice versa. IT IS US–Here IN America who’re willing to NOT ONLY Tolerate but participate in & profit from the gutting & rewiring of Peoples’ Bodily (NOT just fashion-wear) Gender Identity–Who Should SHUT UP OUR Collective MOUTHS & STOP Lecturing “Primitive” Cultures… over their relatively minor gender-issued surgical modifications.”The Ancient Admonition–“Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!”–Comes To My Mind.”
****The point you MISS here is CHOICE. People who wants a sex change CHOOSE it. No one forces them to change. They WANT it. The young Muslim girl isn’t given a choice and she is forcibly mutilated. Same for the Jewish boy.
Your religion is hurtful. Your religion spews hatred and intolerance. Your religion poisons everything. It gives short term satisfaction to it’s members at the expense of everyone else. Sigmund Freud said it well:
“Religion is an attempt to get control over the sensory world, in which we are placed, by means of the wish-world, which we have developed inside us as a result of biological and psychological necessities. But it cannot achieve its end.
Its doctrines carry with them the stamp of the times in which they originated, the ignorant childhood days of the human race. Its consolations deserve no trust. Experience teaches us that the world is not a nursery. The ethical commands, to which religion seeks to lend its weight, require some other foundations instead, for human society cannot do without them, and it is dangerous to link up obedience to them with religious belief.
If one attempts to assign to religion its place in man’s evolution, it seems not so much to be a lasting acquisition, as a parallel to the neurosis which the civilized individual must pass through on his way from childhood to maturity.”
― Sigmund Freud, Moses and Monotheism
Well–Fred–Methinks I touched upon one of Your Nerves… Yes ??
ANYWHO–If You’re gonna call Me OUT–by name…
Then I’ll respond this one (and hopefully LAST) time…
RE: “The point you MISS here is CHOICE. People who wants a sex change CHOOSE it. No one forces them to change.”
LOL–How Old Are YOU ??
By My Guess–You SHOULD BE Old ENOUGH To Recognize How Many of The “Choices” That We May’ve Thought We “Freely” Made IN Life… Had Actually Been SET UP For US & Launched By The Previous Generations… BOTH–IN General–AND–Those of Our Own Immediate Families.
Sexual Identity & Orientation IS NOT Just Some “Random Chance” Genetic Event–Per Your Summary Statement… “Some people are born homosexual. Some heterosexual and some bisexual.”
LOTS of The So-Called Gender “Confusion” OUT There IS MORE Culture Shock & Clash–Than Anything Else.
As a Kid and later, as a Young Adult, during High School & College years… there were plenty of My Peers from different ethnic & religious & cultural backgrounds than Mine who were convinced that I was a Lesbian… but just hadn’t figured it out–yet.
Fortunately For Me…
I was taken back to My Grandparents’ (Irish Catholic) Homes 1000 miles away in small towns of Western Massachusetts every summer. I attended school in Suburban Chicago & later at the U of I–Urbana/Champaign where My manners & style were considered “Mannish” and… if I didn’t have the Annual First Hand Experience of All The Strong Women (AND Strong Men) ON BOTH Sides of My Family… I might’ve believed & been more strongly influenced by the immature & inexperienced Knuckleheads & Chuckleheads of the Playgrounds & Schoolyards.
AS IT IS–I remember those School Chums’ “opinions”… but…
My Mom & Dad & Brothers & Sisters & Aunts (there weren’t any Uncles–except by Marriage) & Grandmothers & Grandfathers & Great Aunts & Great Uncles & Cousins–All–Had The Deepest IMPACT ON My Sense of Self.
I Know–NOT All Kids Are SO LUCKY.
McBlanc if you’re not gay, then you’re not gay. What’s your point?
Some people are and some people aren’t. That’s the point.
Either way, what’s the difference? Live and let live.
Love conquers all.
True Love Conquers All–There IS A Difference.
Just because I haven’t been here in so long and I love this quote. Hope everyone is doing well.”God who gave us life gave us Liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.” –Thomas Jefferson (1774)